TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

You’re not arguing in good faith, so I shouldn’t dignify with a response, but I have concerns that the uninformed might take you seriously, so…

1) Your assertion about the 500 wealthiest families is simultaneously probably correct and completely irrelevant. The point is not that exam culture favors the wealthiest - it’s that it favors those with *enough* wealth to take advantage of its weaknesses.

And the population in Northern Virginia with the highest proportion of upper-middle class families is *absolutely* the South Asians, and they’re quite vocal and proud about it. And rightfully so! They came to this area to make their lives in the Dulles Tech Corridor and they deserve to be lauded for those accomplishments - but the expectation that the TJ admissions process should cater to their educational priorities is asinine.

2) Loudoun didn’t get about 70 spots. They got between 100-120 based on their proportion of 8th grade students in the catchment area. And those seats were approximately 90% Asian, the overwhelming majority of those were South Asian, and those numbers strongly paralleled the infamous “Curie List” students who indicated admission to both TJ and AOS/AET.

3) It’s completely false that no one tried to do anything about TJ admissions until it became majority-Asian. Do your homework (and don’t use ChatGPT like your kids do) and look up the moves that were attempted in the early and late 2000s, mostly led by the NAACP. TJ was about 65% white back in those days and there were plenty of conversations about opening access to TJ to families of lesser economic means.

I'm responding to a post that claims that loudon county indians are "by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia" and the reason this incorrect claim is made is because it the racists want to frame this issue as an income issue when it's about race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

Because racial diversity in this case is another way of saying "too many asians"

I'm sure there is DEI research saying that all sorts of shit but consider most of the top universities in the world that are racially homogenous. Are those universities deficient in some way because of their total lack of diversity? The primary benefit of diversity in the classroom to the students that are NOT receiving a preference is exposure but when the exposure requires a loosening of standards to get the preferred groups in, members of the preferred group will consistently underperform the general population and it starts to become obvious.

Despite then uproar about the large disparities in harvard admissions, the the preference isn't that bad at HYPSM but they should have sopmething like a 7% black population but they want more than their share of URM so they cannibalize places like Columbia and Penn to achieve a 15% black population. Then places like Columbia and Penn ALSO want more than their share so they have to cannibalize even deeper down and by time you get to Cornell for undergrad, the URM students are a tier or two lower than the other students at the school. The GPA of students at Georgetown law school were almost color coded because of the large role race played in admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

If you don't want it, then don't do it. But just as some kids compete at sports, and other kids compete at music, some kids compete at academics.
The Math Olympiad really starts in 5th or 6th grade when kids take the AMC 8. Why is the violin or the tennis racket so much better for kids than the math olympiad?

NARRATIVES?!?!? So because people will point out the huge disparities in test scores, we shouldn't be using test scores? Because it's embarassing? GTFOH.
Asians aren't born better at academics they become that way.

Why are asians in NYC (the group with the highest or second highest poverty rate in NYC have the same sort of overrepresenation at stuyvesant in NYC? What advantages do they have over the wealthier blacks and whites in the city?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

We shouldn't be incentivizing parents of 10-12 years old to streamline their kids' childhoods for any one activity, whether it test prep, travel sports, a musical instrument or whatever the activity it is. Even the kids who are phenominally great at a particular activity should have other activities and interests they are allowed to pursue. Tiger Woods should have been doing more then just golf. The Williams Sisters should have been doing more then just tennis. Chess prodigies, musical prodigies should have other activities that they are allowed to pursue.

This isn't just an academic issue but a life issue. We are driving kids into one sport and a travel sport before they even get to MS because that is how you get a kid onm the HS team or the elite travel team and get a D1 scholarship or make it to the olympics. We drive kids into practicing an instrument X hours of the day and competing because that is how you get into the best music schools. We drive kids to prepare for tests in ES because that is how they get into the elite ES/programs/MS/HS.

It used to be that we encouraged kids to be well rounded. Kids played 2 or 3 sports through HS and then specialized in one sport for college. Kids were in band and practiced their instrument but they played a sport or did other activities. Kids took enrichment classes but there wasn't pressure to take HS classes in 6th grade. Heck, Algebra in 8th grade was seen as advanced.

This area is more academically intense than many other parts of the Country but the pressure on MC and UMC families to have their kid specialize in a sport or instrument or whatever so that they are attractive for colleges and hopefully get scholarships has gotten out of control. For whatever reason, most families seem to buy into the travel sports/summer swim type things and focus on the academic tracks as being out of control, but the truth is, it is all out of control.

The world is more competitive today.

100 years ago 10-12 year old kids were working in mines and factories.

I was a latchkey kid and went home when the streetlights came on because the economy had changed and you needed dual incomes to really stay above water.

Every generation deals with their own issues and the issue that our kids are dealing with is global competition. The asian kids in Loudon that are pushing the academic arms race, they are trying to catch up with the asians in asia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

But who is actually doing that? The Asian "tiger parents" that I know not only have their kids in math enrichment and math competitions, but also have their kids playing a musical instrument at a high level, participating in some sport, taking language classes, and doing volunteer work.

It depends on the asians.

The children of recent immigrants are frequently focusing almost exclusively on academics to the exclusion of other things.

The tiger moms that grew up here have kids that are good at fkn everything. Music, sports, academics extracurriculars, they have build a bear kids.

My neighbor is like this. Take them to every kind of sport until they find one their kid likes enough to work hard at. Take their kid to every kind of music concert and music lesson until they find one their kid will practice at without being nagged. The academics are sort of less about what they want and more an expectation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

TJ was already accessible to all students across the county deserving of being admitted. They change the criteria to ensure quotas as each middle school, and in the process actually disadvantaged the highest achieving kids. The results are already starting to show the impact of that strategy, whether it's a huge reduction in the number of the National Merit Semifinalists or less impressive college admissions.

The average PSAT score dropped 120 points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

TJ was already accessible to all students across the county deserving of being admitted. They change the criteria to ensure quotas as each middle school, and in the process actually disadvantaged the highest achieving kids. The results are already starting to show the impact of that strategy, whether it's a huge reduction in the number of the National Merit Semifinalists or less impressive college admissions.

The average PSAT score dropped 120 points.

So did the HHI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

TJ was already accessible to all students across the county deserving of being admitted. They change the criteria to ensure quotas as each middle school, and in the process actually disadvantaged the highest achieving kids. The results are already starting to show the impact of that strategy, whether it's a huge reduction in the number of the National Merit Semifinalists or less impressive college admissions.

Having an allocation (not quota) for each school does not disadvantage the highest-achieving kids at those schools.

I’d be fine if they wanted to add SOL scored as an additional data point for identifying the top kids at each MS.

An allocation is a quota.

And I don't think you will like using SOL results when you see the racial distribution of advance pass students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

If you don't want it, then don't do it. But just as some kids compete at sports, and other kids compete at music, some kids compete at academics.
The Math Olympiad really starts in 5th or 6th grade when kids take the AMC 8. Why is the violin or the tennis racket so much better for kids than the math olympiad?

NARRATIVES?!?!? So because people will point out the huge disparities in test scores, we shouldn't be using test scores? Because it's embarassing? GTFOH.
Asians aren't born better at academics they become that way.

Why are asians in NYC (the group with the highest or second highest poverty rate in NYC have the same sort of overrepresenation at stuyvesant in NYC? What advantages do they have over the wealthier blacks and whites in the city?

Why did Asians from low-income families struggle so much with the former TJ admissions process?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?