TJ admissions change from Merit to Essay impact to Asian American Students

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.

Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.

The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.

So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.

race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.

There is no racial quota or race-based selections.

Stop spreading misinformation.

FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.

Stop spreading misinformation.

ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.

The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.

So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.

Citation?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.

Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.

The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.

So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.

race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.

There is no racial quota or race-based selections.

Stop spreading misinformation.

FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.

Stop spreading misinformation.

ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.

The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.

So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.

Citation?

There are posters like the above who pull these fictions out of thin air to justify their agenda.They mostly resnet the fairer process and would like toreturn to one that was easily gamed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.

Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.

The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.

So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.

race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.

There is no racial quota or race-based selections.

Stop spreading misinformation.

FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.

Stop spreading misinformation.

ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.

The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.

So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.

Citation?

DP. This boarddocs presentation about the new TJ methods says that 4,357 kids in the class of 2025 would have met the bar of a 3.5+ GPA, at least Algebra I and honors science, and either Young Scholars status or an additional honors class. See appendix B, page 25.
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/BWE23Y004896/$file/TJ%20White%20Paper%2011.17.2020.pdf

FCPS had around 14,000 8th graders that year based on the school profiles membership history for 2020-21. This means around 31% of FCPS 8th graders met the TJ qualification bar that year.

I think that's the closest we have to actual data.

[Anonymous]

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I wasn't aware that so many were being denied.

That happens every year, regardless of admission process.

Asian students were still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.

ACCEPTANCE RATE
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
OVERALL 18%

It appears FCPS is ensuring TJ maintains its academic standing by admitting Asian students into top half and filling the bottom half to fulfill diversity objective?

I notice this talking point keeps being brought up and repeated in these TJ threads. It sounds very muck like the kind of point an advocacy group would pass around to its members and suggest they bring up in any discussion about the subject. In the spirit of, “if you say something enough times, people will believe it’s true.”

Sorry, there’s no evidence to back up this one and repeating it over and over just makes the speakers sound like they can’t think for themselves.

Similarly, on this forum there are a minion group member, who keeps hallucinating test buying whopper, and hopes at least someone out there would believe it, but may very well be a marketing strategy to draw attention towards a particular enrichment business.

I suspect you were writing quickly here and didn’t have time to proofread, so your post is difficult to read, but my guess is that you’re actually talking about test prep companies that charge parents a lot of money to drill their kids to take tests. Kids born into families without a lot of money can’t access expensive programs like this, so they are at a disadvantage that is out of their control. Bright kids don’t have any say in the income level of the families they happen to be born into.

In addition, some of these test prep companies ask their students to report on test questions after they have taken the test, even though the students must sign a statement saying that they will not discuss test questions with anyone. I have heard reports of this occurring from teachers and students at TJ, so definitely not any kind of whopper.

We need to have a level playing field for kids applying to TJ. FCPS is making a strong effort to allow applicants to all have a fair shot at a place at TJ and that is a positive move for our county and its residents.

Nope they literally said that people were buying test answers.

And if income was such an important factor, then why weren't there more white students at TJ?

You sound confused. No one is saying that only kids from well off families were being accepted. They’re saying that being born into a family that was not low income was a benefit in terms of being able to access TJ prep businesses.

If test prep businesses have a bank of test questions because kids who take the test tell the business employees all that they can remember about the test questions, and the only way to access that question bank is to pay the business for their prep services, then you could say in shorthand that you are “buying” access to test questions and answers. No one else would have access to these questions because kids weren’t supposed to discuss the test questions with people outside the test taking place and time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.

Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.

The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.

So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.

race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.

There is no racial quota or race-based selections.

Stop spreading misinformation.

FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.

Stop spreading misinformation.

ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.

The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.

So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.

Citation?

DP. This boarddocs presentation about the new TJ methods says that 4,357 kids in the class of 2025 would have met the bar of a 3.5+ GPA, at least Algebra I and honors science, and either Young Scholars status or an additional honors class. See appendix B, page 25.
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/BWE23Y004896/$file/TJ%20White%20Paper%2011.17.2020.pdf

FCPS had around 14,000 8th graders that year based on the school profiles membership history for 2020-21. This means around 31% of FCPS 8th graders met the TJ qualification bar that year.

I think that's the closest we have to actual data.

Then it's good they only take the top 1.5% of those kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?

The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.

Suppose Asians only went to Longfellow, and there are no Asians at the other middle schools. Asians are getting 75% of seats. Then in an effort to reduce the Asian population, the school board put in a quota per middle school.
This is a racially neutral criteria that would actual be discrimination, with geography being used as a proxy for race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?

The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.

Suppose Asians only went to Longfellow, and there are no Asians at the other middle schools. Asians are getting 75% of seats. Then in an effort to reduce the Asian population, the school board put in a quota per middle school.
This is a racially neutral criteria that would actual be discrimination, with geography being used as a proxy for race.

What is your point? We can see empirically that year hypothetical is wrong. There are Asians and others at middle schools all over Nova. The admissions process is not discriminatory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?

The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.

Suppose Asians only went to Longfellow, and there are no Asians at the other middle schools. Asians are getting 75% of seats. Then in an effort to reduce the Asian population, the school board put in a quota per middle school.
This is a racially neutral criteria that would actual be discrimination, with geography being used as a proxy for race.

What is your point? We can see empirically that year hypothetical is wrong. There are Asians and others at middle schools all over Nova. The admissions process is not discriminatory.

Yes, they're hypothetical is flawed besides the number 1 beneficiary of the changes were low-income Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?

The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.

Suppose Asians only went to Longfellow, and there are no Asians at the other middle schools. Asians are getting 75% of seats. Then in an effort to reduce the Asian population, the school board put in a quota per middle school.
This is a racially neutral criteria that would actual be discrimination, with geography being used as a proxy for race.

What is your point? We can see empirically that year hypothetical is wrong. There are Asians and others at middle schools all over Nova. The admissions process is not discriminatory.

Yes, they're hypothetical is flawed besides the number 1 beneficiary of the changes were low-income Asians.

I would argue that the #1 beneficiary of the changes are all of the Prince William County kids who never would have qualified without the guaranteed allocations. I would not be surprised if a good chunk of the Algebra I kids or unprepared-for-TJ kids came from there.

I'd love to see the demographic breakdowns by county. Probably 90+% of the LCPS kids are higher SES Asians with at least Geometry in 8th. I don't know what the PWC TJ demographics look like, but both they and LCPS send a pretty large number of kids to TJ with the new admissions system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?

The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.

Suppose Asians only went to Longfellow, and there are no Asians at the other middle schools. Asians are getting 75% of seats. Then in an effort to reduce the Asian population, the school board put in a quota per middle school.
This is a racially neutral criteria that would actual be discrimination, with geography being used as a proxy for race.

What is your point? We can see empirically that year hypothetical is wrong. There are Asians and others at middle schools all over Nova. The admissions process is not discriminatory.

Yes, they're hypothetical is flawed besides the number 1 beneficiary of the changes were low-income Asians.

+100

[Anonymous]

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I wasn't aware that so many were being denied.

Yes, over 2000+ they need four more TJs to answer the stem demand.

Plenty of STEM available at base schools.

Not at the level of rigor ideal for these students, and there is not post-calc3 math available at most base schools

Not every applicant needs the TJ "rigor" to succeed in STEM. The vast majority will be served by the STEM offerings at base schools, including math.

Perhaps, but definitely the top 1.5% of students at their base school would benefit from TJ.

OK - good thing there is space for them. The PP was commenting on the thousands of applicants who are not accepted each year. Not everyone who applies is some kind of STEM superstar.

Majority of the declined students have far better advanced middle school math, english and science skills than the bottom Algebra 1 students that are being admitted based on their skin color.

Of course, it's no coincidence that algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.

"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf

So almost one third of class is admitted with algebra 1, almost two levels behind in math compared to their advanced peers?

Algebra 1 in 8th isn’t “behind”.

Sure, its all relative. Over three fourth of their peers are one to two years "ahead" with Geometry or Algebra 2 on day one, according to TJ Admissions.

Why does that matter? Does it occur to you that not every bright child has parents with the money or educational background to put their kids in a position to take math classes earlier than many of their peers?

This is a public school. It is there for every child who will benefit from it. Granted there aren’t enough spaces for every child in the area who can benefit from it, but it is important that kids from all kinds of financial and educational backgrounds have the opportunity. Kids can’t choose their parents and family circumstances and shouldn’t suffer because their parents have less money or education than others.

all kinds of financial and educational backgrounds?
The current non-merit process is admitting 83.64% economically advantaged "wealthy" kids and just 16.36% economically disadvantaged. The worst part of this is more than half fail to meet TJ rigor, and one third need remedial from first month itself. Even more unacceptable is students are being selected based on their skin color.

Who said the change was exclusively made for economically disadvantaged? This admissions change was to racially balance the student body.

That's false. Selection is a race blind. The changes were made in accordance with best practices in gifted education by using local norms and selecting the top students from each school. Previously students were mostly limited to a few wealthy feeders.

He didn't say the selection process was racially biased. He said the change was made to racially balance the student body. They went from a merit based process to what is effectively a random selection of the applicant pool in order to racially balance the student body. The essays are not much different than the essays that existed prior to the change except for one word problem. This is like picking a basketball team based on batting average.

[Anonymous]

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I wasn't aware that so many were being denied.

Yes, over 2000+ they need four more TJs to answer the stem demand.

Plenty of STEM available at base schools.

Not at the level of rigor ideal for these students, and there is not post-calc3 math available at most base schools

Not every applicant needs the TJ "rigor" to succeed in STEM. The vast majority will be served by the STEM offerings at base schools, including math.

Perhaps, but definitely the top 1.5% of students at their base school would benefit from TJ.

OK - good thing there is space for them. The PP was commenting on the thousands of applicants who are not accepted each year. Not everyone who applies is some kind of STEM superstar.

Majority of the declined students have far better advanced middle school math, english and science skills than the bottom Algebra 1 students that are being admitted based on their skin color.

Of course, it's no coincidence that algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.

"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf

So almost one third of class is admitted with algebra 1, almost two levels behind in math compared to their advanced peers?

Algebra 1 in 8th isn’t “behind”.

Sure, its all relative. Over three fourth of their peers are one to two years "ahead" with Geometry or Algebra 2 on day one, according to TJ Admissions.

Why does that matter? Does it occur to you that not every bright child has parents with the money or educational background to put their kids in a position to take math classes earlier than many of their peers?

This is a public school. It is there for every child who will benefit from it. Granted there aren’t enough spaces for every child in the area who can benefit from it, but it is important that kids from all kinds of financial and educational backgrounds have the opportunity. Kids can’t choose their parents and family circumstances and shouldn’t suffer because their parents have less money or education than others.

all kinds of financial and educational backgrounds?
The current non-merit process is admitting 83.64% economically advantaged "wealthy" kids and just 16.36% economically disadvantaged. The worst part of this is more than half fail to meet TJ rigor, and one third need remedial from first month itself. Even more unacceptable is students are being selected based on their skin color.

Go look up what the percentage of students from lower income families was under the old admissions process. Hint: it was much lower than 16.36%.

Also, you should realize that there are many different ways of determining “merit.” Just because you don’t like the current process that involves writing ability doesn’t mean that merit is not involved.

Class of 2024 had 0.6% economically disadvantaged students admitted. Less than 1% of that entire class.

And that was fairly typical. Prior to the changes to the admissions process, TJ was essentially closed to economically disadvantaged and non-center students.

I guess it depends on what you think the purpose of the school is.

If the purpose of the school is to select and develop the best students, then the current method is stupid.
If the purpose of the school is to identify poor kids with high potential and develop their talents, then the current method is still stupid. You can keep the test and still provide a preference for economic disadvantage.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:


I wasn't aware that so many were being denied.

Yes, over 2000+ they need four more TJs to answer the stem demand.

Plenty of STEM available at base schools.

Not at the level of rigor ideal for these students, and there is not post-calc3 math available at most base schools

Not every applicant needs the TJ "rigor" to succeed in STEM. The vast majority will be served by the STEM offerings at base schools, including math.

Perhaps, but definitely the top 1.5% of students at their base school would benefit from TJ.

OK - good thing there is space for them. The PP was commenting on the thousands of applicants who are not accepted each year. Not everyone who applies is some kind of STEM superstar.

Majority of the declined students have far better advanced middle school math, english and science skills than the bottom Algebra 1 students that are being admitted based on their skin color.

Of course, it's no coincidence that algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.

"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf

So almost one third of class is admitted with algebra 1, almost two levels behind in math compared to their advanced peers?

Algebra 1 in 8th isn’t “behind”.

Sure, its all relative. Over three fourth of their peers are one to two years "ahead" with Geometry or Algebra 2 on day one, according to TJ Admissions.

Why does that matter? Does it occur to you that not every bright child has parents with the money or educational background to put their kids in a position to take math classes earlier than many of their peers?

This is a public school. It is there for every child who will benefit from it. Granted there aren’t enough spaces for every child in the area who can benefit from it, but it is important that kids from all kinds of financial and educational backgrounds have the opportunity. Kids can’t choose their parents and family circumstances and shouldn’t suffer because their parents have less money or education than others.

all kinds of financial and educational backgrounds?
The current non-merit process is admitting 83.64% economically advantaged "wealthy" kids and just 16.36% economically disadvantaged. The worst part of this is more than half fail to meet TJ rigor, and one third need remedial from first month itself. Even more unacceptable is students are being selected based on their skin color.

Go look up what the percentage of students from lower income families was under the old admissions process. Hint: it was much lower than 16.36%.

Also, you should realize that there are many different ways of determining “merit.” Just because you don’t like the current process that involves writing ability doesn’t mean that merit is not involved.

Class of 2024 had 0.6% economically disadvantaged students admitted. Less than 1% of that entire class.

And that was fairly typical. Prior to the changes to the admissions process, TJ was essentially closed to economically disadvantaged and non-center students.

It's an important distinction that admission is no longer limited to a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

How was rocky run a wealthy feeder school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These are not approximated…

The impact of the admissions changes:

The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):


Aside from 2020 & 2019, there are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than any other year in the school’s history.



The data shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.

Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%


So, to recap, the number of Asian students at TJ is almost at a record high.

Where are you getting your numbers?

I mean I see that 355 asians were admitted in 2020 and 299 asians were admitted in 2021 This year there are going to be about 1282 asians which is about 138 less than what we would have seen if we kept admitting the 2020 numbers. You can't really compare the admission staatistics from 10 years ago because there were fewer asians applying. I mean it didn't become a crisis until brown asians started overwhelming the school.

[Anonymous]

Enrollment data from FCPS website