TJ admissions change from Merit to Essay impact to Asian American Students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is it a coincidence that Algebra 1 offers went up and Asian American student quota came down?

Merit Test based Admissions:
Class of 2019, Asian American 70.20%; algebra 1 offers 5%
Class of 2020, Asian American 71.34%; algebra 1 offers 5%
Class of 2021, Asian American 74.90%; algebra 1 offers 4%
Class of 2023, Asian American 72.87%; algebra 1 offers 4%
Class of 2024, Asian American 73.05%; algebra 1 offers 4%

Admissions changed to Essay based, and increased enrollment of 8th grade algebra1 students:
Class of 2025, Asian American 54.36%; algebra 1 offers =31%
Class of 2026, Asian American 59.82%; algebra 1 offers >25%
Class of 2027, Asian American 61.64%; algebra 1 offers >25%
Class of 2028, Asian American 57.27%; algebra 1 offers >25%

Page 10 has Algebra1 numbers:
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/BWE23Y004896/$file/TJ%20White%20Paper%2011.17.2020.pdf
Increase in Algebra 1 admits:
https://fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf
What kind of a message does this send to Asian American students? There exists a quota limit?

Yes it does tell Asian American students there is a limit exclusively for them when their representation rises. But not for students of other race, even when the demographics dont match:

California State University—Los Angeles. Hispanic Students: 74% No suppression

South Carolina State University, Black Students: 95% No suppression

TJ High School for Science & Tech, Asian Students 72%, Suppressed to 54% in one year

There's a distinct sense of arrogant confidence among public authorities that, among all minorities, the Asian Americans would tolerate racial manipulation and not react vehemently or violently. No one dare pull this kind of maneuver at those other two universities.

To be fair, those other 2 universities are not competitive. If more asians applied, more asians would get in.
A 75% hispanic population at CSLA doesn't make anyone look bad.
A 2% black population and 4% hispanic population at TJ makes it look like the school board is failing minority students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.

Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.

The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.

So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.

race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.

There is no racial quota or race-based selections.

Stop spreading misinformation.

FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.

Stop spreading misinformation.

ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.

The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.

So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That’s why it happened to diversify and create equality.

Anonymous wrote:Merit Test based Admissions:
Class of 2019, Asian American students received 70.20%
Class of 2020, Asian American students received 71.34%
Class of 2021, Asian American students received 74.90%
Class of 2023, Asian American students received 72.87%
Class of 2024, Asian American students received 73.05%

Admissions changed to Essay based, and increased enrollment of 8th grade algebra1 students:
Class of 2025, Asian American students received 54.36%
Class of 2026, Asian American students received 59.82%
Class of 2027, Asian American students received 61.64%.
Class of 2028, Asian American students received 57.27%

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028

Wow, it may be a slip, but exactly does a school system create equality? Changing the standards for admission may allow some heretofore students in and keep others out, but some students will always perform better than others. There is no such thing as "equality" in performance at TJ or elsewhere.

Equity politics begins and ends with giveaways. The School Board can hand out a TJ offer to the underqualified under the guise of a reward, but they cannot compel a student to study after gaining admission to TJ.

Stop trashing these kids to push your politics. It's disgusting. All of the admitted students were qualified for TJ.

The fact that under-qualified students were being admitted was reported by the principal who mentioned "9th grade students scoring below proficient on the initial Math Inventory", were being jump-started with ALEKS remedial in the third month itself. If admissions was merit based, why would remedial math be needed at the school start?

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/VAEDUFCPS/bulletins/38d509c

They are all well qualified.

Then why are they taking remedial classes?

They are really not academically competitive with their peers at TJ from prior years.

Haha, if you think kids at TJ were not taking remedial classes in the past, I have a bridge to sell you.

Lots of kids in the past had tutors every day after school and would even take classes elsewhere in the summer so that they could take essentially the same class again at TJ for credit. Many of these kids were the same ones who prepped to get in.

I personally know some of these kids and their parents, so I know this to be true. My kid knows more of the kids I’m talking about here. If you’ve had long experience with TJ you would know this.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'm not happy with the current admissions approach, especially as a Black parent of a waitlisted Cooper student. The current TJ entry process seems to favor students from underperforming schools, where the basics of math and science aren't adequately taught, over hardworking, underrepresented students from our Cooper Middle with relatively stronger focus on math and science . We relocated from south of DC to this area specifically for access to better schools with higher academic standards and motivated peers, as we got tired of status quo of school at our previous neighborhood. While my child may not rank in the top one or two percent at Cooper, their grades in AAP math and honors science, along with active involvement in one of the stem team last year, deserve consideration for admission to TJ.

100% of the parents whose kids didnt get in feel this way. But your child was given consideration for admission. The new policies hurts more higher achieving kids.

But I expect my hardworking meritorious black student to be deserving of a TJ offer over a random algebra 1 black student from a poorly managed bottom school. My student worked hard in middle school to complete Geometry, and deserves to explore the TJ opportunity given their demonstrated passion for stem.

I understand your frustration but they don't care about individual merit.

The winner of the 3M middle school science competition is currently a rising sophomore at Woodson.
He developed a soap that would prevent and treat skin cancer. He literally invented a cancer treatment and he didn't get into TJ.
He also happens to be black.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This entire thing is so damn stupid. Since the demand for academic programming like what TJ has is so high that hundreds of willing kids are being shut out, why not open a second school offering the exact same programming? Families should organize around increasing the amount of schools offering TJ level curriculum instead of fighting with each other over an artificially few number of slots.

second is second. If second wants to replace first, second has to work-hard. All worthwhile firsts usually establish a criteria to weed out the unprepared. There is a reason why stem magnet schools exist; to draw the best, and nurture those who are determined to be the best. Once cannot expect to throw dollars and create new stem schools. Because a competitive stem school is not a new building, or fancy cutting edge curriculum, or tough grading, or high calibre teachers. Stem school is all students, what caliber are being admited, and how rigorous of a curriculum are they taking on.

They are not trying to create more educational opportunity. If they were, they would create academies like loudon county did. They are trying to appropriate a reputation for excellence that was built by students that were selected through a merit based process and give it to students who could not make it through a merit based filter because they are embarrassed at how miserably they are failing their minority students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not happy with the current admissions approach, especially as a Black parent of a waitlisted Cooper student. The current TJ entry process seems to favor students from underperforming schools, where the basics of math and science aren't adequately taught, over hardworking, underrepresented students from our Cooper Middle with relatively stronger focus on math and science . We relocated from south of DC to this area specifically for access to better schools with higher academic standards and motivated peers, as we got tired of status quo of school at our previous neighborhood. While my child may not rank in the top one or two percent at Cooper, their grades in AAP math and honors science, along with active involvement in one of the stem team last year, deserve consideration for admission to TJ.

100% of the parents whose kids didnt get in feel this way. But your child was given consideration for admission. The new policies hurts more higher achieving kids.

But I expect my hardworking meritorious black student to be deserving of a TJ offer over a random algebra 1 black student from a poorly managed bottom school. My student worked hard in middle school to complete Geometry, and deserves to explore the TJ opportunity given their demonstrated passion for stem.

I understand your frustration but they don't care about individual merit.

The winner of the 3M middle school science competition is currently a rising sophomore at Woodson.
He developed a soap that would prevent and treat skin cancer. He literally invented a cancer treatment and he didn't get into TJ.
He also happens to be black.

No matter how admissions is handled, there are always going to be kids who “deserve” a spot who don’t get one. There are only so many places, even with the increase in capacity.

We live in an area with highly educated and well off families, many of whom would like their kids to go to TJ. We could probably open three more TJs and fill them with all the kids whose families want that type of education for them. (Although I believe that some parents would suddenly lose interest if the prestige factor disappears when there is not a competitive process and instead anyone who wants to can go.)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That was the design. TJ needs the diversity. Inclusive programs will help every student at the school.

Merit Test based Admissions:
Class of 2019, Asian American students received 70.20%
Class of 2020, Asian American students received 71.34%
Class of 2021, Asian American students received 74.90%
Class of 2023, Asian American students received 72.87%
Class of 2024, Asian American students received 73.05%

Admissions changed to Essay based, and increased enrollment of 8th grade algebra1 students:
Class of 2025, Asian American students received 54.36%
Class of 2026, Asian American students received 59.82%
Class of 2027, Asian American students received 61.64%.
Class of 2028, Asian American students received 57.27%

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028

But TJ post AP advanced multivariable calculus class is still all Asian. That class is waiting for the arrival of the diversity bus, which appears to be stuck in remedial math.

That’s mainly a senior level class and the first new admission class is just Junior year now. So naturally you wouldn’t see any differences yet.

The algebra 1 students find Calc AB itself a challenge in senior year. If they turn super smart after joining TJ, they would still need to skip a level to enroll in Calc BC, and that's about the highest level of their math path.

If you listen to TJ Math teachers over the years, many would disagree with you. Students who take the progression of Geometry, Alg2, and PreCalc (or their TJ equivalents) at TJ rather than at their middle school will usually have a stronger foundation in the fundamentals at each level because they have learned those topics amidst the rigor of TJ.

Students who enter TJ at a significantly advanced level, by contrast, will frequently have gaps in their fundamentals or understanding of the "why" behind the concepts unless they came from Eugene or Vern or someone equally strong.

Foundation for what? Only by the senior year, Alg 1 students would reach the math level needed for TJ's science courses. Alg 2 and more advanced students can always cover their gaps if any during the 4 years while benefiting from the rigorous curriculum.

Before the new admissions, most TJ students were Geo and higher, no complaint heard then. Teachers onlt started complaining in the new admissions when politics meddles with the teaching.

What's disheartening is that Equity hires have been brought into the TJ administration for key positions, and all complaints from math teachers must first go through them for vetting. Math teachers are prohibited from directly addressing concerns with students or parents via emails. Any communication from teachers "with concerns" must undergo an Equity filter.

Courts have ruled that Teachers do have free speech rights.
"In Pickering v. Board of Education (1968), the Supreme Court ruled that an Illinois high school science teacher, Marvin Pickering, had a First Amendment right to send a letter to the editor of the local newspaper. Pickering had been dismissed for sending a letter that criticized the school board "

That is for speech outside the administration of their duties.
If the school policy is that teachers follow a particular process and not speak directly to parents about students academic performance, that is not a free speech issue.

[Anonymous]

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Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?

Along with the admissions change, the total number of seats were expanded by 100 seats, but Asian students were solely excluded from participating in the expanded seat assignment. There are consistently 1000+ declined Asian applicants each year, largest among all ethnicities, and none of them are allowed to receive a single seat from the expanded seat quota.

The expanded seat quota is to accommodate the 1.5% per middle school. There are many middle schools with extremely low numbers of Asians. Therefore you can't expect that Asians will continue to fill up the 1.5% of seats expanded per middle school, so of course it shows in the data that they do not "receive" more of those spots. It's simple math proportions.

If Asian families would move to all the middle schools where there currently are very few Asians (Whitman and Sandburg are less than 5% Asian) then we would see Asians increase in percentage again.

Sure, but the reason they adopted thew 1.5% rule was for racial reasons.

[Anonymous]

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2022 data
https://thebullelephant.com/tjhsst-admission-stats-class-of-2022/

Why doesnt FCPS disclose the applicant count by race now, like they always did before admissions change? All data points to the fact that Asians acceptance rate is lower compared to students of other races. Is the concern it would get exposed?

There are many middle schools with extremely low numbers of Asians. Thus we observe the Asian acceptance rate proportionally decreases now that some schools with very few Asians send 1.5% of their kids.

You have to understand that acceptance is divided by the new expanded total class size, so it's a simple equation of proportion that Asian acceptance rate must decrease. It can only stay the same if Asians significantly increased their number of applications.

If Asian families would move to all the middle schools where there currently are very few Asians instead of concentrating at Rocky Run and Carson, then we would see Asians increase in percentage again.

It sounds like you are saying that asians have to move to avoid discrimination.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Nothing is race blind now. It’s not really equity. It’s boosting some and dampening others.

AAP appears to be going through that process

It's race-blind as a matter of law. If you have knowledge they aren't strictly following this, you have the grounds for a multimillion-dollar lawsuit.

Some kook can post any nonsense like this on DCUM because they're sour grapes. but courts require proof and there is none.

There exists a lengthy history of systemic racism against Asian Americans in the U.S., dating back to 1790. These discriminatory acts, laws, and official policies were intentionally designed to limit the opportunities of Asian Americans. While the FCPS school board approved the admission policy, it is blatantly discriminatory against Asian students.

https://exhibits.stanford.edu/riseup/feature/timeline-of-systemic-racism-against-aapi

The goal was to expand access to TJ to other groups within FCPS, not just kids from a handful of feeder schools.

Before the change, only 0.62% (less than 1%) of TJ students came from economically disadvantaged families. Middle schools serving lower income families had little/no access to TJ for their bright kids.

The wealthy kids at feeder schools aren’t entitled to have ALL of the seats at TJ. There is room for kids from other MSs.

If wealth was driving TJ admissions, you would think TJ would be overwhelmingly white rather than asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Nothing is race blind now. It’s not really equity. It’s boosting some and dampening others.

AAP appears to be going through that process

It's race-blind as a matter of law. If you have knowledge they aren't strictly following this, you have the grounds for a multimillion-dollar lawsuit.

Some kook can post any nonsense like this on DCUM because they're sour grapes. but courts require proof and there is none.

There exists a lengthy history of systemic racism against Asian Americans in the U.S., dating back to 1790. These discriminatory acts, laws, and official policies were intentionally designed to limit the opportunities of Asian Americans. While the FCPS school board approved the admission policy, it is blatantly discriminatory against Asian students.

https://exhibits.stanford.edu/riseup/feature/timeline-of-systemic-racism-against-aapi

The goal was to expand access to TJ to other groups within FCPS, not just kids from a handful of feeder schools.

Before the change, only 0.62% (less than 1%) of TJ students came from economically disadvantaged families. Middle schools serving lower income families had little/no access to TJ for their bright kids.

The wealthy kids at feeder schools aren’t entitled to have ALL of the seats at TJ. There is room for kids from other MSs.

All said, the merit hardworking Asian students, with 1200+ denied applicants each admission cycle - largest among all ethnicities, are being discriminated from participating in the expanded 100 seats quota.

There were ~60 new seats added. Primarily to provide access to other middle schools.

Having <1% students from economically disadvantaged families and so few from poor MSs is a disgrace.

There is nothing meritorious about being affluent.

So what part of the previous process was measuring affluence and not merit?

[Anonymous]

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2022 data
https://thebullelephant.com/tjhsst-admission-stats-class-of-2022/

Why doesnt FCPS disclose the applicant count by race now, like they always did before admissions change? All data points to the fact that Asians acceptance rate is lower compared to students of other races. Is the concern it would get exposed?

There are many middle schools with extremely low numbers of Asians. Thus we observe the Asian acceptance rate proportionally decreases now that some schools with very few Asians send 1.5% of their kids.

You have to understand that acceptance is divided by the new expanded total class size, so it's a simple equation of proportion that Asian acceptance rate must decrease. It can only stay the same if Asians significantly increased their number of applications.

If Asian families would move to all the middle schools where there currently are very few Asians instead of concentrating at Rocky Run and Carson, then we would see Asians increase in percentage again.

It sounds like you are saying that asians have to move to avoid discrimination.

No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?

The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.

[Anonymous]

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Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?

You’ve narrowed the y-axis to make the change look more significant that it actually was.

The average % of Asian students in the admitted class was 68% before the change and now it’s 58%. So 10% drop. And, looking at absolute numbers, the number of Asian students per admitted class went from 330 to 321.

There are NINE fewer Asian students per admitted class on average.

And out of the hundreds of kids per class, there are about 9 fewer Asian students per class than before the change.

That's it? We are just discussing 10 Asians that aren't getting in each year because of the change?

Only if you use base years that include a time when the asian population was still growing.

If you use the year or two immediately preceding the change as baseline, then next year's student body would have between 1420 and 1440 asians.
Next year there are going to be about 1282 asian students.

Using the baseline, there would have been between 344 and 376 white students attending TJ next year.
Next year, there will be about 485 white students.

[Anonymous]

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2022 data
https://thebullelephant.com/tjhsst-admission-stats-class-of-2022/

Why doesnt FCPS disclose the applicant count by race now, like they always did before admissions change? All data points to the fact that Asians acceptance rate is lower compared to students of other races. Is the concern it would get exposed?

At the time of selection, it's unknown since it's race-blind, which is a matter of law in the US.

That didn't stop a whole lot of colleges, or FCPS in the 90s.

There is a long history of racism against Asian Americans in the U.S., FCPS is make effort to make sure it continues.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s

Luckily FCPS favors Asians since they make up the largest cohort by a huge margin for these programs. Asians make up maybe 15% of the coutny's population but take up over 60% of the seats in TJ. The facts make it clear that there's if anything a pro-Asian bias in this process.

Do TJ students get more money per pupil than other students?

Not really but the school does not have to spend a lot of money on special ed or ESL so it's not a perfect analogy.

[Anonymous]

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I wasn't aware that so many were being denied.

That happens every year, regardless of admission process.

Asian students were still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.

ACCEPTANCE RATE
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
OVERALL 18%

It appears FCPS is ensuring TJ maintains its academic standing by admitting Asian students into top half and filling the bottom half to fulfill diversity objective?

I notice this talking point keeps being brought up and repeated in these TJ threads. It sounds very muck like the kind of point an advocacy group would pass around to its members and suggest they bring up in any discussion about the subject. In the spirit of, “if you say something enough times, people will believe it’s true.”

Sorry, there’s no evidence to back up this one and repeating it over and over just makes the speakers sound like they can’t think for themselves.

Similarly, on this forum there are a minion group member, who keeps hallucinating test buying whopper, and hopes at least someone out there would believe it, but may very well be a marketing strategy to draw attention towards a particular enrichment business.

I suspect you were writing quickly here and didn’t have time to proofread, so your post is difficult to read, but my guess is that you’re actually talking about test prep companies that charge parents a lot of money to drill their kids to take tests. Kids born into families without a lot of money can’t access expensive programs like this, so they are at a disadvantage that is out of their control. Bright kids don’t have any say in the income level of the families they happen to be born into.

In addition, some of these test prep companies ask their students to report on test questions after they have taken the test, even though the students must sign a statement saying that they will not discuss test questions with anyone. I have heard reports of this occurring from teachers and students at TJ, so definitely not any kind of whopper.

We need to have a level playing field for kids applying to TJ. FCPS is making a strong effort to allow applicants to all have a fair shot at a place at TJ and that is a positive move for our county and its residents.

Nope they literally said that people were buying test answers.

And if income was such an important factor, then why weren't there more white students at TJ?