Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

I get so tired readng the litigation of whether or not what is happening in Gaza is a genocide or not. I really don’t think k the label of the event is the important point. What matters is: it is wrong. It is cruel. It is inhumane.

As someone with Jewish heritage it pains me to think that Israel - a country founded in the premise of “never again” is perpetuating these horrors. As an American I hate that my taxpayer money is going to fund the weapons Israel is using. There are enough first hand accounts and reporting - even without western media being allowed access into Gaza - that it’s clear what is happening is horrible. Did you read or hear from the Us doctors who worked in Gaza who catalogued the head shots of children (some as young as 1 years old). That data alone establishes the death Israel is inflicting is more than just “collateral damage of war”. As for the cries that Hamas uses human shields - what about the NyT reporting of the civilians that IDF routinely uses to go first into building to assess danger (and be shot at if that danger is present).

If you believe that what Israel is doing is right and just (and that criticism of these actions is antisemitism) I challenge you to meet a Palestinian in person. I know several and they are not all the uneducated war-hungry hatred filled people that you think they are.

If you want Palestinians and Muslims to see the humanity in you, maybe try by seeing the humanity in them!

Again, you are misrepresenting my position and attacking a strawman. I never said “what Israel is doing is right and just (and that criticism of these actions is antisemitism).” Even if I don’t agree with the genocide label, I agree that the war has unleashed massive human suffering and I would like it to end as soon as possible. 70% if ISRAELIS agree with me.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

Lol … nice try, vile Zionist.

Again, name calling is not an argument. It’s a sign that you don’t have an argument.

Again, resorting to Nazi tactics like promoting the idea of creating lists with the names of individuals on them that you would like to marginalize or harm or eliminate altogether, that’s a big ol’ sign that you are enmeshed within a fascist culture hivemind that thinks and acts like the Nazi regime from 80 or whatever years ago. Gross.

Given that, I certainly don’t expect you to recognize any argument other than those that mirror your true believer, fantasyland Zionist propaganda.

Sorry, I’m fresh outta that …

Lol I don’t mean a list as in the list of Jews maintained by the Nazis. I think you know that. I mean a list as in the list of terrorist sympathizers maintained by the Department of Homeland Security.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

What would it take for you to believe their intent is to eliminate the Palestinian people? Because many Israeli leaders have literally stated that as their goal.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

To all you decent, openminded, progressive people out there who support the cause of Palestinian human rights - this was the entire point of my OP.

Criticism of Israel isn’t always antisemitic. But you have to be very careful about what you’re believing and who you’re declaring common cause with. The above poster is claiming that support for October 7th is justified. It is undisputed that October 7th was a terrorist attack specifically targeting civilians. It was captured on video by the perpetrators. They beheaded people with axes (there is video of this). They murdered children in front of their parents (there is video of this too). They kidnapped and murdered babies. This kind of ideology is becoming terrifyingly common. See here for a description of young Americans saying “Bin Laden was right, actually”: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/16/tech/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-to-america

It’s not going to end well for anyone - non-Jewish Americans included.

How easily you brush away the harsh FACT that the very founders of the State of Israel did all of that, and much WORSE, in furtherance of their statehood aims not even 100 years ago.

But now we expect everyone to be civilized and follow rules that we set for them, right? How reasonable of us!

Nobody is justifying terror. Some are rightfully questioning why terror is good for the goose, but not the gander.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

Lol … nice try, vile Zionist.

Again, name calling is not an argument. It’s a sign that you don’t have an argument.

Again, resorting to Nazi tactics like promoting the idea of creating lists with the names of individuals on them that you would like to marginalize or harm or eliminate altogether, that’s a big ol’ sign that you are enmeshed within a fascist culture hivemind that thinks and acts like the Nazi regime from 80 or whatever years ago. Gross.

Given that, I certainly don’t expect you to recognize any argument other than those that mirror your true believer, fantasyland Zionist propaganda.

Sorry, I’m fresh outta that …

Lol I don’t mean a list as in the list of Jews maintained by the Nazis. I think you know that. I mean a list as in the list of terrorist sympathizers maintained by the Department of Homeland Security.

That’s a Nazi tactic. State and DHS are both corrupted by one side of this conflict, alas.

Also, “sympathizer” … GTFOH … thought crimes and 1A in the dumpster?

You really are a dyed-in-the-wool Nazi …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the other kid or his or her parents have to do the emotional labor of explaining anti-Jewish racism to your kid (or you). The other kid is a whole kid who is entitled to their feelings and reactions. They do not need your good opinion to function and I doubt you want or need theirs. Plus, hating on Jews is super hip these days. May actually make DC more friend. I’m sure your kid has also gone up to his or Salvadoran classmates and given them an earful about death squads or his Afghani classmates about gender apartheid and child marriageable. Maybe suggest model UN?

Dp

News flash: anyone is allowed to focus on personal area(s) of concern without your approval or judgement.

As you adroitly pointed out, each is a whole person and approval or judgement is unwelcome. Now, feel free to STFU with this “unless you are certain you have covered every possible base by criticizing every possible wrong in the world, you must be anti-semitic if you criticize Israel” crusade, which is straight outta Hasbara for Dummies.

I mean using bigoted tropes like “hasbara” kind of lets your mask drop a tad, as does your rage…Throwing in the word crusade ups your “onward Christian soldier” vibe for extra credit! News flash - you are free to fixate and foam at the mouth - and we are also free to judge you for it…and if your kid comes at my kid - I’m free to explain to my kid that your kid is a racist who should be avoided. Life is too short. There are too many ignorant people and too many guns in this country, both with children and adults. And I would never tell my child they have to keep secrets from their teachers if another kid is bullying them. I would not confront you personally (see comment about life being too short) but students should always feel empowered to talk to teachers.

No objection whatsoever to a child / minor bringing an actual concern to a teacher, even if said concern is rooted in an overreaction or is simply wrong.

What I do object to is an adult indoctrinating their child into a belief system that is wholly incompatible with reasonableness, e.g., that criticisms of Israel, its leadership, the policies and actions of that leadership, and/or its citizens OR anyone else who unconditionally supports that leadership and those policies and actions is engaging in conduct that constitutes anti-semitism.

It isn’t. It never was. And no matter how hard you and radical, extremist Zionists like Greenblatt aim to lower the standard, it will never fly.

Again, you are free to indoctrinate your children in your skinheadery where you use "Zionist" as a slur like David Duke, and we are entitled to call you out for your racism and hate---and tell our children to protect themselves from you and your children. It is not reasonable for you to expect us to suck it up and ignore you if our kids are involved. Most Jews do not unconditionally support political leadership in every country, even in Israel, Bibi is loathed. But your issue is not with Bibi or right-wing politics - your issue is with the centrality of Israel in Jewish existence ---even for those who exist in opposition to its current leadership. And that is not a standard you are applying to your Italian coworkers whose homeland has a fascist right-wing government, or your Indian coworkers whose government has a right-wing government, or any other country. And yes, Jews are free to call you out for your poor behavior. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

Please. Just because they haven’t yelled “death to Palestinians and Palestine” from the roof tops doesn’t matter at all. Look at what they actually doing, cutting off water, bombing schools and hospitals, promoting settlements, cutting off aid, effectively fencing a whole population in and restricting their freedom of movement, burning their crops, I could go on but do I really need to?

The Egyptians? The Jordanians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the other kid or his or her parents have to do the emotional labor of explaining anti-Jewish racism to your kid (or you). The other kid is a whole kid who is entitled to their feelings and reactions. They do not need your good opinion to function and I doubt you want or need theirs. Plus, hating on Jews is super hip these days. May actually make DC more friend. I’m sure your kid has also gone up to his or Salvadoran classmates and given them an earful about death squads or his Afghani classmates about gender apartheid and child marriageable. Maybe suggest model UN?

Dp

News flash: anyone is allowed to focus on personal area(s) of concern without your approval or judgement.

As you adroitly pointed out, each is a whole person and approval or judgement is unwelcome. Now, feel free to STFU with this “unless you are certain you have covered every possible base by criticizing every possible wrong in the world, you must be anti-semitic if you criticize Israel” crusade, which is straight outta Hasbara for Dummies.

I mean using bigoted tropes like “hasbara” kind of lets your mask drop a tad, as does your rage…Throwing in the word crusade ups your “onward Christian soldier” vibe for extra credit! News flash - you are free to fixate and foam at the mouth - and we are also free to judge you for it…and if your kid comes at my kid - I’m free to explain to my kid that your kid is a racist who should be avoided. Life is too short. There are too many ignorant people and too many guns in this country, both with children and adults. And I would never tell my child they have to keep secrets from their teachers if another kid is bullying them. I would not confront you personally (see comment about life being too short) but students should always feel empowered to talk to teachers.

No objection whatsoever to a child / minor bringing an actual concern to a teacher, even if said concern is rooted in an overreaction or is simply wrong.

What I do object to is an adult indoctrinating their child into a belief system that is wholly incompatible with reasonableness, e.g., that criticisms of Israel, its leadership, the policies and actions of that leadership, and/or its citizens OR anyone else who unconditionally supports that leadership and those policies and actions is engaging in conduct that constitutes anti-semitism.

It isn’t. It never was. And no matter how hard you and radical, extremist Zionists like Greenblatt aim to lower the standard, it will never fly.

Again, you are free to indoctrinate your children in your skinheadery where you use "Zionist" as a slur like David Duke, and we are entitled to call you out for your racism and hate---and tell our children to protect themselves from you and your children. It is not reasonable for you to expect us to suck it up and ignore you if our kids are involved. Most Jews do not unconditionally support political leadership in every country, even in Israel, Bibi is loathed. But your issue is not with Bibi or right-wing politics - your issue is with the centrality of Israel in Jewish existence ---even for those who exist in opposition to its current leadership. And that is not a standard you are applying to your Italian coworkers whose homeland has a fascist right-wing government, or your Indian coworkers whose government has a right-wing government, or any other country. And yes, Jews are free to call you out for your poor behavior. Period.

There’s no common ground that can be found with someone like you. David Duke? Really?

Well, just wake me up when Italy and India (and any other whataboutism land you would like to distract all us with) are welfare whore imports subsisting on massive scale U.S. taxpayer grift and terrorizing the millions of refugees they created when they violently stole their land based on a fairytale that entails them persisting that they are superior to everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

To all you decent, openminded, progressive people out there who support the cause of Palestinian human rights - this was the entire point of my OP.

Criticism of Israel isn’t always antisemitic. But you have to be very careful about what you’re believing and who you’re declaring common cause with. The above poster is claiming that support for October 7th is justified. It is undisputed that October 7th was a terrorist attack specifically targeting civilians. It was captured on video by the perpetrators. They beheaded people with axes (there is video of this). They murdered children in front of their parents (there is video of this too). They kidnapped and murdered babies. This kind of ideology is becoming terrifyingly common. See here for a description of young Americans saying “Bin Laden was right, actually”: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/16/tech/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-to-america

It’s not going to end well for anyone - non-Jewish Americans included.

How easily you brush away the harsh FACT that the very founders of the State of Israel did all of that, and much WORSE, in furtherance of their statehood aims not even 100 years ago.

But now we expect everyone to be civilized and follow rules that we set for them, right? How reasonable of us!

Nobody is justifying terror. Some are rightfully questioning why terror is good for the goose, but not the gander.

[Anonymous]

Well done, y'all. They've got you fighting the culture wars here so that you don't pay attention to all the other ways we are getting royally effed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

To all you decent, openminded, progressive people out there who support the cause of Palestinian human rights - this was the entire point of my OP.

Criticism of Israel isn’t always antisemitic. But you have to be very careful about what you’re believing and who you’re declaring common cause with. The above poster is claiming that support for October 7th is justified. It is undisputed that October 7th was a terrorist attack specifically targeting civilians. It was captured on video by the perpetrators. They beheaded people with axes (there is video of this). They murdered children in front of their parents (there is video of this too). They kidnapped and murdered babies. This kind of ideology is becoming terrifyingly common. See here for a description of young Americans saying “Bin Laden was right, actually”: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/16/tech/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-to-america

It’s not going to end well for anyone - non-Jewish Americans included.

How easily you brush away the harsh FACT that the very founders of the State of Israel did all of that, and much WORSE, in furtherance of their statehood aims not even 100 years ago.

But now we expect everyone to be civilized and follow rules that we set for them, right? How reasonable of us!

Nobody is justifying terror. Some are rightfully questioning why terror is good for the goose, but not the gander.

I think almost every Prime Minister of Israel was a terrorist or war criminal and were celebrated by their constituents.

Menachem Begin, settler colonizer from Russia, was one of the OG terrorists leading the Irgun and involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

To all you decent, openminded, progressive people out there who support the cause of Palestinian human rights - this was the entire point of my OP.

Criticism of Israel isn’t always antisemitic. But you have to be very careful about what you’re believing and who you’re declaring common cause with. The above poster is claiming that support for October 7th is justified. It is undisputed that October 7th was a terrorist attack specifically targeting civilians. It was captured on video by the perpetrators. They beheaded people with axes (there is video of this). They murdered children in front of their parents (there is video of this too). They kidnapped and murdered babies. This kind of ideology is becoming terrifyingly common. See here for a description of young Americans saying “Bin Laden was right, actually”: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/16/tech/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-to-america

It’s not going to end well for anyone - non-Jewish Americans included.

How easily you brush away the harsh FACT that the very founders of the State of Israel did all of that, and much WORSE, in furtherance of their statehood aims not even 100 years ago.

But now we expect everyone to be civilized and follow rules that we set for them, right? How reasonable of us!

Nobody is justifying terror. Some are rightfully questioning why terror is good for the goose, but not the gander.

Even assuming Israelis committed atrocities 80+ years ago when the state was founded (which, I haven’t seen evidence of anything remotely as sadistic as October 7, but ok. Palestinians also committed atrocities back then). That means terrorism is ok/understandable now?

“Americans scalped Native Americans when they conquered the land. And now you’re surprised that Native Americans are scalping random US citizens? Boo f-ing boo.” See how that sounds?

You are ABSOLUTELY justifying terrorism. If that’s not terror apologism I genuinely don’t know what is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals.

And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide.

I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though.

Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way.

By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this.

Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land?

Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.

This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC.

To all you decent, openminded, progressive people out there who support the cause of Palestinian human rights - this was the entire point of my OP.

Criticism of Israel isn’t always antisemitic. But you have to be very careful about what you’re believing and who you’re declaring common cause with. The above poster is claiming that support for October 7th is justified. It is undisputed that October 7th was a terrorist attack specifically targeting civilians. It was captured on video by the perpetrators. They beheaded people with axes (there is video of this). They murdered children in front of their parents (there is video of this too). They kidnapped and murdered babies. This kind of ideology is becoming terrifyingly common. See here for a description of young Americans saying “Bin Laden was right, actually”: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/16/tech/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-to-america

It’s not going to end well for anyone - non-Jewish Americans included.

How easily you brush away the harsh FACT that the very founders of the State of Israel did all of that, and much WORSE, in furtherance of their statehood aims not even 100 years ago.

But now we expect everyone to be civilized and follow rules that we set for them, right? How reasonable of us!

Nobody is justifying terror. Some are rightfully questioning why terror is good for the goose, but not the gander.

Even assuming Israelis committed atrocities 80+ years ago when the state was founded (which, I haven’t seen evidence of anything remotely as sadistic as October 7, but ok. Palestinians also committed atrocities back then). That means terrorism is ok/understandable now?

“Americans scalped Native Americans when they conquered the land. And now you’re surprised that Native Americans are scalping random US citizens? Boo f-ing boo.” See how that sounds?

You are ABSOLUTELY justifying terrorism. If that’s not terror apologism I genuinely don’t know what is.

I’m not justifying it, but feel free to believe what you want. I actually have no dog in the fight, which I’m sure we can agree is not the case with you. I’m merely blowing barn-sized holes through your pathetic insinuation that Israel and Israelis are in any way, shape or form innocents in all of this conflict.

But please do continue obsessing over trying to add more names to the Betar, Canary Mission, ADL, AIPAC, and broader Gestapo monitoring list … it only takes one careless misstep. 😏

[Anonymous]

If Ivanka Trump divorced and then married a nonjew, had more kids, these news kids would be Jews and have rights to Israel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the decades, Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.

Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html.

Thank you for dictating “the rules” …

Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us.

I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah?

That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.

DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British.

Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it.

To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history.

We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.

Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.

Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison.

I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.

I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic.

Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with.

It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions.

It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic.

If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence).

Your comparison is repulsive.

BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities?

Are you f^cking serious?

YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed.

You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already.

Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza?

No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.

What would it take for you to believe their intent is to eliminate the Palestinian people? Because many Israeli leaders have literally stated that as their goal.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

When they take the option of surrender off the table.