Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of it is “legalized” cheating. I grew up in NY.

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying.

They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

Compared to me. I worked 20 hours a week in HS, had chores. SAT was a book I took out of library. Paid SAT and college fees my self no help. Most of childhood slept in living room as did not even a bedroom so no place to study.

But how do you compare GPAs and SATs scores. Could my Asian class mate done any better than me.

I got lucky and a college had a program for disadvantaged students with potential and I got on. I recall a fellow student was appalled I needed under a certain HS GPA and SAT score to qualify. He said unfair I got in by having a GPA under a random number. Ironically how is it fair he got in with a GPA over a random number? That guy ended up moving near me in my 40s, we both graduated college, got similar household incomes and similar jobs,

Basing admittance on a random number is silly. Holistic approach is better.

Holistic approach is good.
However what makes you think that you would be better in other extra areas such as ECs, Awards, Essay, Reasearch, etc than those
Asian kids.

Based on what you said, they are probably overall better on those areas as well.

Neither is "better" that is the point of having both in the same college.

They can't have everyone in the college.
let's not go to fairy tales

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The study, published earlier this month in the National Bureau of Economic Research, found that 43 percent of white students admitted to Harvard University were recruited athletes, legacy students, children of faculty and staff, or on the dean’s interest list — applicants whose parents or relatives have donated to Harvard.”

“The study also found that roughly 75 percent of the white students admitted from those four categories, labeled 'ALDCs' in the study, “would have been rejected if they had been treated as white non-ALDCs,” the study said.“

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361

This has been the case for quite a while – it’s just such a polluted environment. Across all students, a small percentage are there PURELY on merit.

+1 Pin this article.

It's quite shameful that those "enlightened" institutions are still using a criteria that is rooted in racism. IMO, this is worse than affirmative action because it's an attempt to "keep it all in the family". The excuse that they use legacy as a form of fundraising in order to pay for lower income students to go to those schools is also bunk. Those schools have so much money in endowment that they could let everyone go there for free for years. They could also lower the cost so that so many students don't need the FA. But, nope, they pretend that legacy is important because it allows them to let in the poor kids.

It's basically a cartel.
Governmenrt should withdraw any kind of benefit and aid from these schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Many people are arguing if somebody has a higher SAT they think they have a right to be chosen over the lower SAT especially if everything else is equal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying. They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

This still happens, including "Saturday school."

That’s called hard work. Not “legalized cheating.”

No that is not "hard work". Only "certain people" think of it that way. Colleges want to find unicorns with the SAT not somebody that studied and studied and studied for it.

However colleges may see it, it is still hard work and dedication.

I don't see it as hard work. I see working as a janitor in the morning before school starts, or working all night at a restaurant, or doing construction, caring for you 3 siblings and your sick mother ... hard work.

Reading a book and filling in little, tiny bubbles is not hard work. It does indicate somebody that is unable to speak for themselves, does not follow their passion and are afraid of their parents.

Where did you get 'afraid of their parents' part from?????

Who is making them sit for hours and hours filling little bubbles and learning how to take tests? Is it a child that just loves to learn how to take tests? Is that a new passion I'm unaware of? Are there test taking clubs in retirement homes now to bond and relax?

My Asian kids are far from it. they are more on the creative side however,
most of those kids are ambitious, dedicated, endure, and want to be a brain doctor, NASA engineer, etc.

Kind of like football players in HS. They do all kinds of extra training after school even in Weekends. Football is really not a fun sport to play but you get satisfaction and a sense of achievement.

If you are a parent, you should know, there's so much you can do to your kids.

What does any of this have to do with test prep?

what about test prep?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Many people are arguing if somebody has a higher SAT they think they have a right to be chosen over the lower SAT especially if everything else is equal.

Oh no, many people are arguing an individual should not be discriminated based on race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of it is “legalized” cheating. I grew up in NY.

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying.

They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

Compared to me. I worked 20 hours a week in HS, had chores. SAT was a book I took out of library. Paid SAT and college fees my self no help. Most of childhood slept in living room as did not even a bedroom so no place to study.

But how do you compare GPAs and SATs scores. Could my Asian class mate done any better than me.

I got lucky and a college had a program for disadvantaged students with potential and I got on. I recall a fellow student was appalled I needed under a certain HS GPA and SAT score to qualify. He said unfair I got in by having a GPA under a random number. Ironically how is it fair he got in with a GPA over a random number? That guy ended up moving near me in my 40s, we both graduated college, got similar household incomes and similar jobs,

Basing admittance on a random number is silly. Holistic approach is better.

Holistic approach is good.
However what makes you think that you would be better in other extra areas such as ECs, Awards, Essay, Reasearch, etc than those
Asian kids.

Based on what you said, they are probably overall better on those areas as well.

Neither is "better" that is the point of having both in the same college.

They can't have everyone in the college.
let's not go to fairy tales

That's right, somebody sold the high SAT holders a "fairy tale" story if they give up their childhood for test prep they will be given the golden ticket. Then they see their peers with lower test scores going to their #1 college and they are mad that they were lied to, but they were lied to by their parents... not society, not colleges, their parents.

Both are just as good... so sometimes the low SAT score (of course it's still in the top 10% of the nation) get admitted over those with a slightly higher test score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Many people are arguing if somebody has a higher SAT they think they have a right to be chosen over the lower SAT especially if everything else is equal.

Oh no, many people are arguing an individual should not be discriminated based on race.

But they are using SAT scores to prove they are "discriminated" against.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying. They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

This still happens, including "Saturday school."

And when white UMC parents do the same thing, it's called "enrichment"

I’m a white UMC parent of one in high school and one in middle school. I don’t know a single white UMC kid who has gone to Saturday School or done any form of academic enrichment other than SAT or ACT prep. Weekends are generally for sports, hanging out with friends and going on trips with family.

_________________________________
You are a white UMC family that prioritizes athletics and family time, what is wrong with Asians focusing on education. BTW, now most UMC Asian families are also focused on athletics or other EC in addition to academics because they know they have to be better that all other races to get into the colleges of their choice. In NYC, it is many low income Asian families who attend cram schools to get out of poverty. I don't see anything wrong with it. My parents sacrificed a lot to send me to a top college, I hold them in the highest regard for affording me all the opportunities. Even today despite being modestly off, my parents never ask me for money and are there for childcare at any time. I have never cried about lost childhood or filling out bubbles - I am just grateful for their dedication. Today I can send me kids to private schools only because they sacrificed for me. My children have the luxury of exploring different EC because money is no longer a constraint. They do not need to go to cram schools because my husband and I are well educated and provide a home environment which is already enriched.

Get rid of non-revenue sports and legacy - we will see how many UMC white families will focus on those sports once they no longer factor into admissions.

Also, Asians score higher on every measure, including EC, interview and recommendations when compared to whites. The only place they score lower is in "personality" which is a Harvard made up section by admissions officer who has never even met the kid. See the link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/yjbefg/oc_how_harvard_admissions_rates_asian_american/

Asians are new Jews.

History repeats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Many people are arguing if somebody has a higher SAT they think they have a right to be chosen over the lower SAT especially if everything else is equal.

Oh no, many people are arguing an individual should not be discriminated based on race.

But they are using SAT scores to prove they are "discriminated" against.

Oh no, they are using all sorts of data including SAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying. They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

This still happens, including "Saturday school."

That’s called hard work. Not “legalized cheating.”

No that is not "hard work". Only "certain people" think of it that way. Colleges want to find unicorns with the SAT not somebody that studied and studied and studied for it.

However colleges may see it, it is still hard work and dedication.

I don't see it as hard work. I see working as a janitor in the morning before school starts, or working all night at a restaurant, or doing construction, caring for you 3 siblings and your sick mother ... hard work.

Reading a book and filling in little, tiny bubbles is not hard work. It does indicate somebody that is unable to speak for themselves, does not follow their passion and are afraid of their parents.

You noramlly do those hard work after failing working hard studying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

+1 no one is talking about the Asian applicants who only have high stats. They were not getting into Harvard anyway. These are the kids with very high numbers AND all the same EC accomplishments etc as their white peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Many people are arguing if somebody has a higher SAT they think they have a right to be chosen over the lower SAT especially if everything else is equal.

You are basically saying two very different things here, don't know if you're confused or hiding the ball.

It's about the bolded, not about higher SATs exclusively.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing says the schools have to pick their students based on academic merit alone. It's not a simple GPA/standardized test score combo that is required to gain admission.

Athletes - If the schools choose to have athletic teams as an activity, why not fill them with decent players? Not shocking. Is a talented musician, academic team member, or speech/debate team member necessarily superior to or more valuable than a talented athlete under a holistic admissions approach?

Except that holistic admission shouldn’t be making you check Race Box and using that to discriminate based on race?

Right. Was stated in response to PPs stating that athletes shouldn't be given admissions "tips"/points/preferences.

To clarify, diversity on many different levels can be a goal. The schools shouldn't be using the box to eliminate people bc of their race. However, the schools also are not obligated to rank applicants solely by GPA and test scores.

So rank by race?

For the 100th time, nobody is saying solely use GPA + Tests.
Yes they are.

they who?

People who point to a person's GPA and Test and say they don't belong over other students that have higher SAT and GPA.

Oh no, they also have excellent ECs, Awards, Essaasy, etc., so they don't have to say SAT and GPA only.
So that's the problem. You are mistaken.

+1 no one is talking about the Asian applicants who only have high stats. They were not getting into Harvard anyway. These are the kids with very high numbers AND all the same EC accomplishments etc as their white peers.

They also have higher interview scores from the interveiwers who actually talked to the students LMFAO
WTF is that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying. They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

This still happens, including "Saturday school."

That’s called hard work. Not “legalized cheating.”

No that is not "hard work". Only "certain people" think of it that way. Colleges want to find unicorns with the SAT not somebody that studied and studied and studied for it.

However colleges may see it, it is still hard work and dedication.

I don't see it as hard work. I see working as a janitor in the morning before school starts, or working all night at a restaurant, or doing construction, caring for you 3 siblings and your sick mother ... hard work.

Do you know what you are even talking about? Spending time to work, read, and to study while others play is definitely hard work. And in case you didn't realize, Asians very often hold down jobs and care for siblings while studying, especially as many are recent immigrants with 2 working parents.

Reading a book and filling in little, tiny bubbles is not hard work. It does indicate somebody that is unable to speak for themselves, does not follow their passion and are afraid of their parents.

All is hard work, some may be by necessity, some optional. The jobs in the first paragraph should be considered. Didn't the Mother Jones article say applicants are not given points for jobs, though? I believe that SES diversity should be and is considered.

Stop saying it's "hard work"... studying is not hard work.

You are an idiot. Obviously cruised through some weaksauce liberal arts program. If you'd majored in STEM, you'd know studying is hard as hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of it is “legalized” cheating. I grew up in NY.

My Asian friends parents sent them to Cram schools in summer. They actually request the books for next school year then spend 40 hours a week all summer studying.

They had pros helping with Essay, SAT tutors. Many their focus was just homework. And they worked as a group helping each other.

Compared to me. I worked 20 hours a week in HS, had chores. SAT was a book I took out of library. Paid SAT and college fees my self no help. Most of childhood slept in living room as did not even a bedroom so no place to study.

But how do you compare GPAs and SATs scores. Could my Asian class mate done any better than me.

I got lucky and a college had a program for disadvantaged students with potential and I got on. I recall a fellow student was appalled I needed under a certain HS GPA and SAT score to qualify. He said unfair I got in by having a GPA under a random number. Ironically how is it fair he got in with a GPA over a random number? That guy ended up moving near me in my 40s, we both graduated college, got similar household incomes and similar jobs,

Basing admittance on a random number is silly. Holistic approach is better.

Holistic approach is good.
However what makes you think that you would be better in other extra areas such as ECs, Awards, Essay, Reasearch, etc than those
Asian kids.

Based on what you said, they are probably overall better on those areas as well.

Neither is "better" that is the point of having both in the same college.

They can't have everyone in the college.
let's not go to fairy tales

That's right, somebody sold the high SAT holders a "fairy tale" story if they give up their childhood for test prep they will be given the golden ticket. Then they see their peers with lower test scores going to their #1 college and they are mad that they were lied to, but they were lied to by their parents... not society, not colleges, their parents.

Both are just as good... so sometimes the low SAT score (of course it's still in the top 10% of the nation) get admitted over those with a slightly higher test score.

Asians are not getting passed over in favor of kids with a "slightly" lower SAT score, but a massively lower score.