AAP Center Elimination Rumors

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just sort of look at these threads about AAP with amusement. My kids are above average bright. One is not yet old enough for SOL’s but the other got a pass advanced on two out of three and was only a few points shy of pass advanced on the third. I feel confident that they will do fine in honors classes in middle and high school. We are at a center school. There are a ton of bright kids who don’t get into AAP. It seems like there is a really high bar. Whenever I had the occasional chance to see work done by other kids in my kids’ K-2 classes (e.g writing displayed in hallways), I was blown away at how advanced some of them seemed. I know my kids aren’t at that level. They are much more at home with their peers who are/will be in Gen Ed. They definitely seem to group the kids by ability there whether they are explicit about that or not.

It does seem like things are very different at non-center schools. I have friends whose kids are similar to mine that ended up getting placed into AAP after a year or two. It seems like that was more about filling out the class numbers than anything else. Their kids are not at all at the level of these kids who got into AAP at my kids’ school.

I feel like there are two very distinct types of Center schools - one, like Navy, that's let everyone and their brother into AAP so that there are more AAP kids from the base school than in the General Ed program. And others, like Lemon Road, that are really hard to get into AAP from the base school. I don't know why the difference since these are supposed to be central committee selections.

Yeah. My kid attended Mosaic. Most of the kids in AAP there are regular bright kids or even completely average kids who could have had their needs met in gen ed. Very few of them will go on to even be national merit commended scholars (top 3%).

And yet they can handle the aap curriculum and so can the top of Gen Ed kids

Nope. They definitely slowed down the curriculum for everyone else. Math was at best gen ed math given a year early with no real extensions. Reading had the below and on grade level groups sucking up all of the teacher's time.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just sort of look at these threads about AAP with amusement. My kids are above average bright. One is not yet old enough for SOL’s but the other got a pass advanced on two out of three and was only a few points shy of pass advanced on the third. I feel confident that they will do fine in honors classes in middle and high school. We are at a center school. There are a ton of bright kids who don’t get into AAP. It seems like there is a really high bar. Whenever I had the occasional chance to see work done by other kids in my kids’ K-2 classes (e.g writing displayed in hallways), I was blown away at how advanced some of them seemed. I know my kids aren’t at that level. They are much more at home with their peers who are/will be in Gen Ed. They definitely seem to group the kids by ability there whether they are explicit about that or not.

It does seem like things are very different at non-center schools. I have friends whose kids are similar to mine that ended up getting placed into AAP after a year or two. It seems like that was more about filling out the class numbers than anything else. Their kids are not at all at the level of these kids who got into AAP at my kids’ school.

I feel like there are two very distinct types of Center schools - one, like Navy, that's let everyone and their brother into AAP so that there are more AAP kids from the base school than in the General Ed program. And others, like Lemon Road, that are really hard to get into AAP from the base school. I don't know why the difference since these are supposed to be central committee selections.

Yeah. My kid attended Mosaic. Most of the kids in AAP there are regular bright kids or even completely average kids who could have had their needs met in gen ed. Very few of them will go on to even be national merit commended scholars (top 3%).

And yet they can handle the aap curriculum and so can the top of Gen Ed kids

Nope. They definitely slowed down the curriculum for everyone else. Math was at best gen ed math given a year early with no real extensions. Reading had the below and on grade level groups sucking up all of the teacher's time.

So it's the same as Gen Ed?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just sort of look at these threads about AAP with amusement. My kids are above average bright. One is not yet old enough for SOL’s but the other got a pass advanced on two out of three and was only a few points shy of pass advanced on the third. I feel confident that they will do fine in honors classes in middle and high school. We are at a center school. There are a ton of bright kids who don’t get into AAP. It seems like there is a really high bar. Whenever I had the occasional chance to see work done by other kids in my kids’ K-2 classes (e.g writing displayed in hallways), I was blown away at how advanced some of them seemed. I know my kids aren’t at that level. They are much more at home with their peers who are/will be in Gen Ed. They definitely seem to group the kids by ability there whether they are explicit about that or not.

It does seem like things are very different at non-center schools. I have friends whose kids are similar to mine that ended up getting placed into AAP after a year or two. It seems like that was more about filling out the class numbers than anything else. Their kids are not at all at the level of these kids who got into AAP at my kids’ school.

I feel like there are two very distinct types of Center schools - one, like Navy, that's let everyone and their brother into AAP so that there are more AAP kids from the base school than in the General Ed program. And others, like Lemon Road, that are really hard to get into AAP from the base school. I don't know why the difference since these are supposed to be central committee selections.

Yeah. My kid attended Mosaic. Most of the kids in AAP there are regular bright kids or even completely average kids who could have had their needs met in gen ed. Very few of them will go on to even be national merit commended scholars (top 3%).

And yet they can handle the aap curriculum and so can the top of Gen Ed kids

Nope. They definitely slowed down the curriculum for everyone else. Math was at best gen ed math given a year early with no real extensions. Reading had the below and on grade level groups sucking up all of the teacher's time.

So it's the same as Gen Ed?

Yep. But I unfortunately made my point poorly. There are undoubtedly a lot of gen ed kids who could handle the AAP curriculum. There are undoubtedly some AAP kids who slow things down for everyone. In a more perfect system, they would admit every kid who plausibly could handle advanced materials, and then not slow down for anyone. Drawing a very arbitrary line between the average+ kids admitted and the average+ kids rejected, and then doing everything in their power to keep struggling kids in AAP is dumb.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just sort of look at these threads about AAP with amusement. My kids are above average bright. One is not yet old enough for SOL’s but the other got a pass advanced on two out of three and was only a few points shy of pass advanced on the third. I feel confident that they will do fine in honors classes in middle and high school. We are at a center school. There are a ton of bright kids who don’t get into AAP. It seems like there is a really high bar. Whenever I had the occasional chance to see work done by other kids in my kids’ K-2 classes (e.g writing displayed in hallways), I was blown away at how advanced some of them seemed. I know my kids aren’t at that level. They are much more at home with their peers who are/will be in Gen Ed. They definitely seem to group the kids by ability there whether they are explicit about that or not.

It does seem like things are very different at non-center schools. I have friends whose kids are similar to mine that ended up getting placed into AAP after a year or two. It seems like that was more about filling out the class numbers than anything else. Their kids are not at all at the level of these kids who got into AAP at my kids’ school.

I feel like there are two very distinct types of Center schools - one, like Navy, that's let everyone and their brother into AAP so that there are more AAP kids from the base school than in the General Ed program. And others, like Lemon Road, that are really hard to get into AAP from the base school. I don't know why the difference since these are supposed to be central committee selections.

Yeah. My kid attended Mosaic. Most of the kids in AAP there are regular bright kids or even completely average kids who could have had their needs met in gen ed. Very few of them will go on to even be national merit commended scholars (top 3%).

And yet they can handle the aap curriculum and so can the top of Gen Ed kids

Nope. They definitely slowed down the curriculum for everyone else. Math was at best gen ed math given a year early with no real extensions. Reading had the below and on grade level groups sucking up all of the teacher's time.

So it's the same as Gen Ed?

Yep. But I unfortunately made my point poorly. There are undoubtedly a lot of gen ed kids who could handle the AAP curriculum. There are undoubtedly some AAP kids who slow things down for everyone. In a more perfect system, they would admit every kid who plausibly could handle advanced materials, and then not slow down for anyone. Drawing a very arbitrary line between the average+ kids admitted and the average+ kids rejected, and then doing everything in their power to keep struggling kids in AAP is dumb.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't believe the school board (or County Board of Supervisors) would move to eliminate a program that is an attraction for county residents (and thereby tax dollars/county revenue). Plenty of people look at FCPS as a model system, believe it or not. Why would they give the appearance that they are dumbing down anything? Like it or lump it, the AAP program and centers are here to stay.

I think there is a difference between eliminating AAP as a program and eliminating or reducing centers. An easy fix is if local level IV is available if you choose to go to center you provide transportation.

Center haters are salty that AAP kids get to choose centers as an option. They claim the cost of bussing to the centers is too high but they would still complain if parents were required to drive AAP students to the centers.

Center haters hate when their base school is a center because some of the families are a holes about it. If people could stop being so pretentious about an elementary school accomplishment AND if the center schools could find a way to meet every student where they are at including the top of GE kids who are sitting around waiting half the time, then it would be fine ...

DP. I agree and disagree. Our community school became a center only after we had moved to the neighborhood. So much for that nice community school we thought we were getting.

I think centers should be a thing of the past and FCPS should stop sticking labels on elementary schoolers. Just offer all the levels needed in different classrooms and let the kids attend whichever suits their needs at any given time.

Completely, 100% agree.
DP

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have only two requests for AAP, and I think it's really telling that some AAP parents don't like these ideas:

1. Reevaluate based on in class performance and standardized test scores each year.

2. Eliminate middle school centers and have dedicated AAP classes available at every middle school.

Would love to hear why AAP parents don't like these two ideas. if your child belongs, your child belongs. If your child is offered dedicated AAP classes, then your child gets to take them.

#1: It's because they look at their second-grade children as the equivalent of professors who've been awarded tenure or Supreme Court judges appointed to lifetime positions.

#2: It's because they think Carson and Rocky Run are "better" than other schools even when that's just a function of the kids who happen to end up in AAP there.

Glad you can admit that cohorts matter and that centers produce better cohorts.

DP. Ah, it’s the “cohort” poster again. If AAP was offered on a per-subject basis, then those subject groupings would be by “cohort.” The only difference would be that AAP would no longer be a segregated, “exclusive” program. It would simply be the advanced instruction available to all kids able to do the work.

But people like you wouldn’t like that. You prefer the perceived status of an exclusive AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have only two requests for AAP, and I think it's really telling that some AAP parents don't like these ideas:

1. Reevaluate based on in class performance and standardized test scores each year.

2. Eliminate middle school centers and have dedicated AAP classes available at every middle school.

Would love to hear why AAP parents don't like these two ideas. if your child belongs, your child belongs. If your child is offered dedicated AAP classes, then your child gets to take them.

There have been multiple posters in this thread wishing those who couldn't Pass Advanced the SOL be bumped out of AAP. I personally also wish my kid's base MS (Franklin) got all the AAP kids from its boundary instead of most of them electing to go to Carson. My kid chose Carson because all his AAP friends he had been in class with since 3rd grade were also going to Carson. If Franklin had all those AAP kids the program would rival Carson's in just a couple years and people wouldn't feel like they needed to choose the center for the "better" program.

Those of us who didn't prep their kids in order to get them into AAP would be fully on board with yearly evaluations. No matter what criteria is used to determine where they draw the line though it wouldn't stop this same level of complaining from the parents of kids who felt they just missed the cut.

DP. There are clearly two very different schools of thought here.

1. Parents who think there should be a test-in criteria for AAP, below which no one is admitted.

2. Parents who think that AAP should be offered to all kids who are able to do the work - and a testing score doesn’t provide that information at all. If kids are doing AAP work successfully, that’s all that matters. If they aren’t, then there should be other groups they can easily access until/if they’re ready to move up. And this should be done by subject. Very, very few kids are all AAP or all Gen Ed - and they shouldn’t be labeled as this or that.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't care if they get rid of Centers or not. What I do care about is that they drop kids who don't belong in AAP every year. Didn't get pass advanced in SOLs or 90+ percentile on both iready tests? OUT.

Exactly. The whole point is to not be slow the class down pulling up the stragglers. And to the poster who is just sure her child belongs if not for the mean test scores saying no - maybe you should prep your kid for the test if you are so convinced they'd be fine with all the work. Tests are the most fair way to evaluate aptitude that we have. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It's already too low, as shown by all the whining here about other kids that got in. I'd love for it to be higher. However, we'd just be hearing from a different set of parents instead of you.

No, the whole point is that fcps should keep their word and start meeting all kids where they are at.
The fact that there are kids in aap dragging it down and kids in ge sitting around running out of work to do (per the teacher, not just the kids saying it) illustrates the problems with the current system. Maybe if all kids were met where they were at, less on the fringe parents would apply just because.

Sounds like your problem is with the gen ed class experience. Why don't you complain and do something about that and quit bringing the AAP kids into it?

I doubt it is happening in GenED as you say. And, if it is happening in GenED, it would also be applicable to AAP.. Do you not think that the ones who just barely slip in AAP could be bringing down the truly GT kids?

And, did you never take a test and finish before everyone else and have to wait for others to finish?

The irony of the parents here arguing their kid who was denied entrance should have AAP full time but also arguing about "the ones who just barely slip in AAP could be bringing down the truly GT kids."

DP. Once again: no one is arguing their kids should have "full time" AAP. The argument has been made that each core subject should have flexible groupings so that one teacher would handle the advanced language arts kids, another the grade-level - LA kids, another the remedial LA kids. And so on for each subject.

The point - which you are no doubt deliberately missing because you just enjoy arguing - is that ALL KIDS should be able to access the ability grouping that is best for THEM, per subject. Not that there should be this idiotic division of students as either/or AAP / Gen Ed. There is a huge amount of overlap and gray area here.

Go back and read. There are definitely parents who believe their kid should be in it full time.

And no, I'm not deliberately missing the point. What you are missing is that your kid IS accessing the program that is best for them. I get that you believe they should be placed higher for certain subjects, but you aren't exactly an objective source.

DP. Wow, the snobbery here. You do realize, I hope, that the AAP selection is based on feelings rather than data. There are kids with high test scores who are above grade level in all measures who get rejected from AAP. Some even have the support from their teachers and still get rejected. For some, they get rejected because even though all objective evidence says that the kid is highly gifted, the teacher just didn't like the kid and gave a low rating. Many kids are rejected from AAP when it IS the program that is best for them. Many are accepted when AAP absolutely IS NOT the program that is best for them. Even the AARTs are often confused by kids who are rejected who look like they have the profile of an AAP kid and kids who are accepted with very little to suggest that they belong in AAP.

Years ago, my kid who was rejected from AAP with a 97th percentile unprepped CogAT, above grade level in math and reading, and with high teacher recommendation. They earned perfect scores on the 3rd grade SOLs. Meanwhile, over half of the kids in AAP at the center failed to even earn pass advanced on the reading SOL. Are you really going to insist that those kids "needed" AAP, but mine was unworthy?

If you are still this worked up over a rejection that happened years ago, seek therapy.

How do you know so much about what AAP kids are scoring and your kid wasn't even in the class? According to DCUM if he was rejected and relegated to GenEd, then no one would talk to him. Tracking other people's kids academic progress is very strange and unhealthily obsessive. Especially when you remember that info years later.

DP. Trust me my 'gen ed' kid knows which aap kids he's smarter than. They all know which kids aren't keeping up and are getting pulled out for extra help. It all comes out in the end.

You trust the word of a 10 year old claiming he is smarter than some other random kids? Bizarre and embarrassing that you are using that as a serious argument.

I know, right? Kind of like 8 yr. olds (and up) telling their Gen Ed peers how much smarter they are because they were placed in AAP. Who would actually believe that? I would be mortified if my own kids ever did something like that. Bizarre and embarrassing, indeed.
DP

I agree! I would be even more mortified if I took what an 8 year old said to heart and obsessed over it for years and even tried to dismantle the program because my kid didn't get in! Embarrassing indeed.

Wildly pathetic. If it's true that "all the non AAP kids are in the HS honors classes anyway" then why are they fighting like hell to get their kids in? Jealously is so unbecoming.

DP. A better question would be, why are AAP parents fighting like hell to exclude all of the other kids who are perfectly able to do what amounts to a slightly advanced curriculum - especially since you know full well our kids will be together in high school honors and AP classes. Not to mention, colleges...

News flash: We aren’t. Your kid is selected, great! And I don’t care that our kids will be together in HS. It’s the peer group now that helps set the important path.

Except that “important path” is moot since -once again - all the bright kids will be together in high school, regardless of some meaningless label bestowed at age seven. That must be so disappointing to you.

Bothers me none. I'm happy for your child no matter their placement, be it third grade or in every AP class in high school. Your child's academic placement/schedule has no impact on my family whatsoever. This is something I wish the gen ed parents intent on tearing down AAP could agree on, instead of their vile jealousy of children.

Except - once again - no one is trying to “tear down AAP.” We are saying it should be open to all who are able.

It actually is very clear that my child’s academic placement does indeed have some sort of weird impact on you. If you truly didn’t care, you would agree that AAP should be available to every child. But you want to gatekeep it. Maybe ask yourself why that is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have only two requests for AAP, and I think it's really telling that some AAP parents don't like these ideas:

1. Reevaluate based on in class performance and standardized test scores each year.

2. Eliminate middle school centers and have dedicated AAP classes available at every middle school.

Would love to hear why AAP parents don't like these two ideas. if your child belongs, your child belongs. If your child is offered dedicated AAP classes, then your child gets to take them.

#1: It's because they look at their second-grade children as the equivalent of professors who've been awarded tenure or Supreme Court judges appointed to lifetime positions.

#2: It's because they think Carson and Rocky Run are "better" than other schools even when that's just a function of the kids who happen to end up in AAP there.

Glad you can admit that cohorts matter and that centers produce better cohorts.

DP. Ah, it’s the “cohort” poster again. If AAP was offered on a per-subject basis, then those subject groupings would be by “cohort.” The only difference would be that AAP would no longer be a segregated, “exclusive” program. It would simply be the advanced instruction available to all kids able to do the work.

But people like you wouldn’t like that. You prefer the perceived status of an exclusive AAP.

Oh it would still be segregated. There will always be kids who aren't advanced in anything. And what happens when your kid still doesn't make the cut? I'm sure you'll still be complaining on DCUM about the cut off criteria.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Lorton Station is starting the process of departmentalizing grades 4-6 next year. Teachers will deliver content on subjects to entire grades.

I wonder if this is being directed by FCPS, with thoughts of implementing it across all elementary schools at some point.

Of course it is being directed from the top. The whole comprehensive boundary review is nothing but a ruse to keep the peasants occupied and fighting among themselves while the intellectual elite at Gatehouse do what they want behind the scenes.

Ok- many schools already do this. BUT, contrary to what the PP who wanted this for AAP, when it is done Math/science and LA/social studies are grouped together. The children also usually stay together and as a class switch teachers. If you have to regroup to meet the needs of every kid, you are going to not really have a home room and will change for every subject because some kids qualify for AAP in just one subject. Some schools already do this for SIXTH grade in elementary which makes sense as it is watered down middle school. It is not typically practice from 3-5 and it should not be. Developmentally those kids still need the steadiness of being with the same kids for most of the day.

A long long time ago in a far away place (different state) we were grouped and moved for each subject starting in 3rd grade. And we were with different kids for each subject based on strengths, and kids could be moved up and down at any time to meet their needs. Honestly, the first time I heard the fcps talking point of meeting every kid where they were at I assumed that meant some sort of movement up and down so that they could always be learning what they are ready for. Never expected to be told by a teacher based on kids fall iready she wouldn't be teaching them anything until February...

It worked because everyone was getting what they needed. Did we know which group was the smart group and which group was struggling? Yes, of course, and today's kids are smart enough to figure it out too in the current system. But, everyone was always in a group where they were being challenged to grow. And we were happy for kids when they moved up. And everyone knew what their stregnths and weaknesses were. And we could see that maybe one kid who struggled with language arts was a genius at math. And another kid who struggled with math was an amazing writer, etc. Instead of saying oh well you're not good at everything so you don't get the curriculum where you need it, we were all more likely to be exposed to a challenge in our strength.
My guess is someone will argue that this system didn't work for the bottom of the bottom, and I would be interested to see how the data compare these kids outcomes in the two systems.

+100
This is exactly what we had growing up and it worked great. I was an advanced LA kid but needed more help in math. So I went to the advanced LA class and then to the grade-level math class. There was a GT program that took a handful of kids from each school. 99% of the other kids just circulated in the different groups and moved up (or down) as needed, whenever needed. No one had to wait a YEAR to see if some test would give them access to a moderately accelerated curriculum in any subject. It was just there, for anyone who was able to do it.

The current system has complicated everything, in addition to excluding bright kids who would thrive with more advanced work. It’s disgraceful that a curriculum which is not even a “gifted” one, has been gate-kept from all of these other highly capable kids. A test score doesn’t determine who can do the work.

Interesting, it is like we can’t even get to a good answer because people are just bringing back “when I was in school”.

How did the kids not know you were dumb in math? or smart in social studies? Did you think that helped you, or that you were immune because you could say you were smart in LA?

It is like humanity can’t make progress because people can’t think beyond “when I was in school”.

Um, no one cared because most of the kids were also advanced in some subjects but not in all. Or “dumb,” as you so charmingly put it - so telling.

And of course that system helped us. Everyone had access to the appropriate level per subject.

No, they didn’t get what they needed in this system. In this system, my sister had to skip a grade. Because my sister had bad social experience skipping a grade, my parents decided not to skip me I got pull out G/T classes once a week and was bored. And my point in using dumb is that kids label kids MORE in this system. It was more obvious which group you were in for which subject.


Differentiation does work, but only when administration isn’t only concentrating on test scores for the cusp kids. That hasn’t gone away, so differentiation won’t work right now for the top -ish kids and that is why we have AAP.

The real problem is 2 fold
1- phonics programs and science of reading need to differentiate for learners (not just one size fits all)
AND
2- Administration needs to focus on teaching ALL kids. They need to allow teachers to meet with all groups and not leave the middle-high kids to themselves while giving all the teacher time to the low-middle kids.

It is like people have to rewrite everything right now so everyone can question everything. And so people are reverting back to our childhoods for what works. Get a clue and read some research rather than being like “I walked a mile uphill both ways to school and it was great!” Use something other than personal experience, especially personal experience from your childhood (when you aren’t objective about the world at all) to make informed decisions.

Wow - get a clue, indeed. You continue to confuse "differentiation" with flexible groupings, held in separate classrooms. That's nothing at all like differentiation within the same classroom, which is what you are describing. Of course that doesn't work. One teacher can't possibly offer every child in his/her classroom academics tailored to their abilities. That's why the kids should go to Rm. A for advanced language arts; Rm. B for grade-level LA; Room C for remedial, etc. Same for all core classes. And "flexible" means Larla can move up to Rm. A if she shows advanced skills in Rm. B. No testing in required to simply access a slightly more advanced curriculum.

You seem to want to make this far more complicated that it needs to be. We all know the reason for that.

And btw - there is no system in which kids label other kids as "dumb" than the current AAP / GE division. None.

Hey Alicia here- I’m not confused at all. I’m just taking your rather naive points and showing you the result of your thinking in the real world. You can’t do flexible groupings in separate classrooms for everyone. Scheduling wise it won’t work. Flexible groupings mean kids are constantly floating around. If a kid needs advanced math, but low reading and the low reading group meets with the reading teacher during the time the high math group is in math- where is the kid going to attend class? This is why this works in middle school because the sheer number of kids allows multiple sections of the same class.

If all the kids are meeting for math at the same time, all the teachers will still have to know all of the curriculum for each subject and the plus for departmentalizing for teachers is that they only have to deal with one subject. If you think switching teachers for kids in the middle of the year after every marking period or semester will work, that is naive as well. Getting to know a new teacher and a class style takes a few weeks. Changing class composition leads to instability and kids scores will go down for bit as they get to know new procedures, teaching styles etc. This works ok in high schools, but they have even switched to block schedules and they keep the same teachers for the year now.
Also, the way flexible groupings are supposed to work is kids switch up groups when they start new skills. That means a kid who has math facts down, may not have geometry down and if you think they are switching for just one unit, please see the above issues for why that won’t work.

What if kid a was in gen ed math for grade 4 and missed the grade 4/5 curriculum and then in grade 6 they go to 5/6- they will have missed half a year of instruction and have to catch up which will slow the class down.

Also, these groups will always have kids of different abilities in them even when they are segregated by “smartness”

If AAP goes, that is fine, but don’t put some half thought out system in there like you are proposing.

It’s almost amusing how many hypothetical roadblocks you’ve dreamed up here, all in an effort to make sure AAP stays exclusive. Your points are so absurd, I’ll just say this.

All math / LA, etc. subjects would meet during the same block. This is how it was done in my kid’s last school (NY) and it worked beautifully. None of your doomsday scenarios were an issue at all.

Opening AAP to all students is the opposite of trying to “dismantle” it, as some of you have breathlessly claimed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I have only two requests for AAP, and I think it's really telling that some AAP parents don't like these ideas:

1. Reevaluate based on in class performance and standardized test scores each year.

2. Eliminate middle school centers and have dedicated AAP classes available at every middle school.

Would love to hear why AAP parents don't like these two ideas. if your child belongs, your child belongs. If your child is offered dedicated AAP classes, then your child gets to take them.

There have been multiple posters in this thread wishing those who couldn't Pass Advanced the SOL be bumped out of AAP. I personally also wish my kid's base MS (Franklin) got all the AAP kids from its boundary instead of most of them electing to go to Carson. My kid chose Carson because all his AAP friends he had been in class with since 3rd grade were also going to Carson. If Franklin had all those AAP kids the program would rival Carson's in just a couple years and people wouldn't feel like they needed to choose the center for the "better" program.

Those of us who didn't prep their kids in order to get them into AAP would be fully on board with yearly evaluations. No matter what criteria is used to determine where they draw the line though it wouldn't stop this same level of complaining from the parents of kids who felt they just missed the cut.

DP. There are clearly two very different schools of thought here.

1. Parents who think there should be a test-in criteria for AAP, below which no one is admitted.

2. Parents who think that AAP should be offered to all kids who are able to do the work - and a testing score doesn’t provide that information at all. If kids are doing AAP work successfully, that’s all that matters. If they aren’t, then there should be other groups they can easily access until/if they’re ready to move up. And this should be done by subject. Very, very few kids are all AAP or all Gen Ed - and they shouldn’t be labeled as this or that.

"Able to do the work" is such a nebulous say-nothing phrase. The point of the AAP class is to allow the kids who learn faster the ability to go faster, to not have to wait so much on other kids to catch up. Lots of kids can "do the work", it's about being able to understand quickly so the class can go more in-depth or onto more advanced material sooner. It's a blurry line on which kids are fast enough, but just letting any kid in who can "do the work" will definitely add more in that require teacher attention and slow progress. There should be fewer kids in AAP, not more. The focus should be on getting rid of the kids who prepped their way in and are slowing things down. If your child was missed and really should be there then there is already a process to appeal or reapply.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't care if they get rid of Centers or not. What I do care about is that they drop kids who don't belong in AAP every year. Didn't get pass advanced in SOLs or 90+ percentile on both iready tests? OUT.

Exactly. The whole point is to not be slow the class down pulling up the stragglers. And to the poster who is just sure her child belongs if not for the mean test scores saying no - maybe you should prep your kid for the test if you are so convinced they'd be fine with all the work. Tests are the most fair way to evaluate aptitude that we have. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It's already too low, as shown by all the whining here about other kids that got in. I'd love for it to be higher. However, we'd just be hearing from a different set of parents instead of you.

No, the whole point is that fcps should keep their word and start meeting all kids where they are at.
The fact that there are kids in aap dragging it down and kids in ge sitting around running out of work to do (per the teacher, not just the kids saying it) illustrates the problems with the current system. Maybe if all kids were met where they were at, less on the fringe parents would apply just because.

Sounds like your problem is with the gen ed class experience. Why don't you complain and do something about that and quit bringing the AAP kids into it?

I doubt it is happening in GenED as you say. And, if it is happening in GenED, it would also be applicable to AAP.. Do you not think that the ones who just barely slip in AAP could be bringing down the truly GT kids?

And, did you never take a test and finish before everyone else and have to wait for others to finish?

The irony of the parents here arguing their kid who was denied entrance should have AAP full time but also arguing about "the ones who just barely slip in AAP could be bringing down the truly GT kids."

DP. Once again: no one is arguing their kids should have "full time" AAP. The argument has been made that each core subject should have flexible groupings so that one teacher would handle the advanced language arts kids, another the grade-level - LA kids, another the remedial LA kids. And so on for each subject.

The point - which you are no doubt deliberately missing because you just enjoy arguing - is that ALL KIDS should be able to access the ability grouping that is best for THEM, per subject. Not that there should be this idiotic division of students as either/or AAP / Gen Ed. There is a huge amount of overlap and gray area here.

Go back and read. There are definitely parents who believe their kid should be in it full time.

And no, I'm not deliberately missing the point. What you are missing is that your kid IS accessing the program that is best for them. I get that you believe they should be placed higher for certain subjects, but you aren't exactly an objective source.

DP. Wow, the snobbery here. You do realize, I hope, that the AAP selection is based on feelings rather than data. There are kids with high test scores who are above grade level in all measures who get rejected from AAP. Some even have the support from their teachers and still get rejected. For some, they get rejected because even though all objective evidence says that the kid is highly gifted, the teacher just didn't like the kid and gave a low rating. Many kids are rejected from AAP when it IS the program that is best for them. Many are accepted when AAP absolutely IS NOT the program that is best for them. Even the AARTs are often confused by kids who are rejected who look like they have the profile of an AAP kid and kids who are accepted with very little to suggest that they belong in AAP.

Years ago, my kid who was rejected from AAP with a 97th percentile unprepped CogAT, above grade level in math and reading, and with high teacher recommendation. They earned perfect scores on the 3rd grade SOLs. Meanwhile, over half of the kids in AAP at the center failed to even earn pass advanced on the reading SOL. Are you really going to insist that those kids "needed" AAP, but mine was unworthy?

If you are still this worked up over a rejection that happened years ago, seek therapy.

How do you know so much about what AAP kids are scoring and your kid wasn't even in the class? According to DCUM if he was rejected and relegated to GenEd, then no one would talk to him. Tracking other people's kids academic progress is very strange and unhealthily obsessive. Especially when you remember that info years later.

DP. Trust me my 'gen ed' kid knows which aap kids he's smarter than. They all know which kids aren't keeping up and are getting pulled out for extra help. It all comes out in the end.

You trust the word of a 10 year old claiming he is smarter than some other random kids? Bizarre and embarrassing that you are using that as a serious argument.

I know, right? Kind of like 8 yr. olds (and up) telling their Gen Ed peers how much smarter they are because they were placed in AAP. Who would actually believe that? I would be mortified if my own kids ever did something like that. Bizarre and embarrassing, indeed.
DP

I agree! I would be even more mortified if I took what an 8 year old said to heart and obsessed over it for years and even tried to dismantle the program because my kid didn't get in! Embarrassing indeed.

Wildly pathetic. If it's true that "all the non AAP kids are in the HS honors classes anyway" then why are they fighting like hell to get their kids in? Jealously is so unbecoming.

DP. A better question would be, why are AAP parents fighting like hell to exclude all of the other kids who are perfectly able to do what amounts to a slightly advanced curriculum - especially since you know full well our kids will be together in high school honors and AP classes. Not to mention, colleges...

News flash: We aren’t. Your kid is selected, great! And I don’t care that our kids will be together in HS. It’s the peer group now that helps set the important path.

Except that “important path” is moot since -once again - all the bright kids will be together in high school, regardless of some meaningless label bestowed at age seven. That must be so disappointing to you.

Bothers me none. I'm happy for your child no matter their placement, be it third grade or in every AP class in high school. Your child's academic placement/schedule has no impact on my family whatsoever. This is something I wish the gen ed parents intent on tearing down AAP could agree on, instead of their vile jealousy of children.

As far as AAP vs. gen ed goes, pretty much every other school system in the country can deliver mildly accelerated content to somewhat above average kids. FCPS is the only one that buses mildly bright kids to a completely different school to deliver content that is at best 1 year above grade level. It really is absurd. AAP centers should be for the kids who are outliers in their school who need instruction at 2+ years above grade level.

BINGO. You nailed it, exactly.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

DP. I would say using phrases such as, “better peer group” is just as ignorant and harmful. Wouldn’t you?


No, because one is an accurate representation of an opinion (better peer group, for example), and one is the incorrect and offensive use of an inflammatory word that demonstrates ignorance.

DP. PP is a snob. Maybe a bigot. But, definitely a snob.

Bigotry is assuming that there can't be diverse kids in the better peer group. You are the only one suggesting that as a possibility. At our center, there are many minorities of all backgrounds in the program.

Multiple posters now have directly or indirectly pointed out that it is the better peer group/ cohort that is what makes the centers stronger and more appealing to families with that choice. That isn't snobbery. It is the truth.

DP. You seem confused. Segregation doesn’t have to refer to race - and in this case, it doesn’t. It refers to dividing all students into one of two vast groups - GE or AAP - labeling them as such at the age of seven, and then keeping them in separate classrooms under the false pretense that one group is so much more advanced than the other and that there couldn’t possibly be an enormous overlap of abilities.

After removing GT, the whole system has been corrupted. AAP is NOT a gifted program and should simply be another grouping open to everyone.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't care if they get rid of Centers or not. What I do care about is that they drop kids who don't belong in AAP every year. Didn't get pass advanced in SOLs or 90+ percentile on both iready tests? OUT.

Exactly. The whole point is to not be slow the class down pulling up the stragglers. And to the poster who is just sure her child belongs if not for the mean test scores saying no - maybe you should prep your kid for the test if you are so convinced they'd be fine with all the work. Tests are the most fair way to evaluate aptitude that we have. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It's already too low, as shown by all the whining here about other kids that got in. I'd love for it to be higher. However, we'd just be hearing from a different set of parents instead of you.

No, the whole point is that fcps should keep their word and start meeting all kids where they are at.
The fact that there are kids in aap dragging it down and kids in ge sitting around running out of work to do (per the teacher, not just the kids saying it) illustrates the problems with the current system. Maybe if all kids were met where they were at, less on the fringe parents would apply just because.

Sounds like your problem is with the gen ed class experience. Why don't you complain and do something about that and quit bringing the AAP kids into it?

I doubt it is happening in GenED as you say. And, if it is happening in GenED, it would also be applicable to AAP.. Do you not think that the ones who just barely slip in AAP could be bringing down the truly GT kids?

And, did you never take a test and finish before everyone else and have to wait for others to finish?

The irony of the parents here arguing their kid who was denied entrance should have AAP full time but also arguing about "the ones who just barely slip in AAP could be bringing down the truly GT kids."

DP. Once again: no one is arguing their kids should have "full time" AAP. The argument has been made that each core subject should have flexible groupings so that one teacher would handle the advanced language arts kids, another the grade-level - LA kids, another the remedial LA kids. And so on for each subject.

The point - which you are no doubt deliberately missing because you just enjoy arguing - is that ALL KIDS should be able to access the ability grouping that is best for THEM, per subject. Not that there should be this idiotic division of students as either/or AAP / Gen Ed. There is a huge amount of overlap and gray area here.

Go back and read. There are definitely parents who believe their kid should be in it full time.

And no, I'm not deliberately missing the point. What you are missing is that your kid IS accessing the program that is best for them. I get that you believe they should be placed higher for certain subjects, but you aren't exactly an objective source.

DP. Wow, the snobbery here. You do realize, I hope, that the AAP selection is based on feelings rather than data. There are kids with high test scores who are above grade level in all measures who get rejected from AAP. Some even have the support from their teachers and still get rejected. For some, they get rejected because even though all objective evidence says that the kid is highly gifted, the teacher just didn't like the kid and gave a low rating. Many kids are rejected from AAP when it IS the program that is best for them. Many are accepted when AAP absolutely IS NOT the program that is best for them. Even the AARTs are often confused by kids who are rejected who look like they have the profile of an AAP kid and kids who are accepted with very little to suggest that they belong in AAP.

Years ago, my kid who was rejected from AAP with a 97th percentile unprepped CogAT, above grade level in math and reading, and with high teacher recommendation. They earned perfect scores on the 3rd grade SOLs. Meanwhile, over half of the kids in AAP at the center failed to even earn pass advanced on the reading SOL. Are you really going to insist that those kids "needed" AAP, but mine was unworthy?

If you are still this worked up over a rejection that happened years ago, seek therapy.

How do you know so much about what AAP kids are scoring and your kid wasn't even in the class? According to DCUM if he was rejected and relegated to GenEd, then no one would talk to him. Tracking other people's kids academic progress is very strange and unhealthily obsessive. Especially when you remember that info years later.

DP. Trust me my 'gen ed' kid knows which aap kids he's smarter than. They all know which kids aren't keeping up and are getting pulled out for extra help. It all comes out in the end.

You trust the word of a 10 year old claiming he is smarter than some other random kids? Bizarre and embarrassing that you are using that as a serious argument.

I know, right? Kind of like 8 yr. olds (and up) telling their Gen Ed peers how much smarter they are because they were placed in AAP. Who would actually believe that? I would be mortified if my own kids ever did something like that. Bizarre and embarrassing, indeed.
DP

I agree! I would be even more mortified if I took what an 8 year old said to heart and obsessed over it for years and even tried to dismantle the program because my kid didn't get in! Embarrassing indeed.

Wildly pathetic. If it's true that "all the non AAP kids are in the HS honors classes anyway" then why are they fighting like hell to get their kids in? Jealously is so unbecoming.

DP. A better question would be, why are AAP parents fighting like hell to exclude all of the other kids who are perfectly able to do what amounts to a slightly advanced curriculum - especially since you know full well our kids will be together in high school honors and AP classes. Not to mention, colleges...

News flash: We aren’t. Your kid is selected, great! And I don’t care that our kids will be together in HS. It’s the peer group now that helps set the important path.

Except that “important path” is moot since -once again - all the bright kids will be together in high school, regardless of some meaningless label bestowed at age seven. That must be so disappointing to you.

Bothers me none. I'm happy for your child no matter their placement, be it third grade or in every AP class in high school. Your child's academic placement/schedule has no impact on my family whatsoever. This is something I wish the gen ed parents intent on tearing down AAP could agree on, instead of their vile jealousy of children.

Except - once again - no one is trying to “tear down AAP.” We are saying it should be open to all who are able.

It actually is very clear that my child’s academic placement does indeed have some sort of weird impact on you. If you truly didn’t care, you would agree that AAP should be available to every child. But you want to gatekeep it. Maybe ask yourself why that is.

Are you dense? AAP IS available to every child already - anyone can apply or be referred, but everyone cannot be selected. You're just mad your kid wasn't picked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. I would say using phrases such as, “better peer group” is just as ignorant and harmful. Wouldn’t you?


No, because one is an accurate representation of an opinion (better peer group, for example), and one is the incorrect and offensive use of an inflammatory word that demonstrates ignorance.

DP. PP is a snob. Maybe a bigot. But, definitely a snob.

Bigotry is assuming that there can't be diverse kids in the better peer group. You are the only one suggesting that as a possibility. At our center, there are many minorities of all backgrounds in the program.

Multiple posters now have directly or indirectly pointed out that it is the better peer group/ cohort that is what makes the centers stronger and more appealing to families with that choice. That isn't snobbery. It is the truth.

AKA segregation

Segregation by intelligence.

Excuse me while I vomit.
DP