I’m a liberal democrat horrified by the current Dr Seuss drama and normalization of censorship

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There’s a low-t beta on this thread posting from his mom’s basement who has listened to a couple Jordan Peterson podcasts and now feels he must do something to save Dr. Seuss from what he has determined to be “cancel culture” and “postmodern” thought. To him this issue is a personal attack on his own existence even though he owns none of the books. After all, who’d have children with him?

Oh brother. You pretty clever to figure out the Jordan Peterson connection, but I think Jordan Peterson gets too much wrong to be of any use. What he gets right, he gets garbled from other people. You heard bad things about him and he sounds crazy so he must be bad. But you can't actually tell me what's wrong with what I said either. So you came up with this fancy insult that says nothing.

Oh it says something alright. You’re just to dense to get it.

DP

Really. You think I sound like Jordan Peterson? And you literally can't think of ANY other source for my ideas? No other philosophical psychopaths I might have read and perhaps you did not?

And you gathered somehow that I think postmodernism is bad, like he does? Really? This is what getting all your information spoon fed on the internet does to people. Turn it off and read some old books or something before the publisher drops them for racism.

Wow.

Nope. Still don’t get it do you? It’s going to be okay. Society is moving on from your type, but no one is out to get you. The existential panic you’re having is wholly synthetic.

No you don't get it. You don't know me. You don't know what I read or don't read. You can't read my mind. You just think you do. So you end up talking to a fantasy you made up yourself. You are "reassuring" a person who doesn't exist. No idea why you think you have some kind of special insight into anonymous strangers, but I'm not a mind reader either.

DP...whether you know it or not, your words reflect the kind of person you are.

Oh yes, absolutely. But they reflect who you are as well. If I tell you that I didn't get my ideas from Jordan Peterson and you insist that I did anyway, this says are you really not listening to me, because you have no idea where I get my ideas from, unless I tell you. So that's the kind of person you are. Don't listen, make up a reason to dismiss them, then nlow them off with a superior goodbye. Okay. You do you. Doesn't affect me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a low-t beta on this thread posting from his mom’s basement who has listened to a couple Jordan Peterson podcasts and now feels he must do something to save Dr. Seuss from what he has determined to be “cancel culture” and “postmodern” thought. To him this issue is a personal attack on his own existence even though he owns none of the books. After all, who’d have children with him?

Oh brother. You pretty clever to figure out the Jordan Peterson connection, but I think Jordan Peterson gets too much wrong to be of any use. What he gets right, he gets garbled from other people. You heard bad things about him and he sounds crazy so he must be bad. But you can't actually tell me what's wrong with what I said either. So you came up with this fancy insult that says nothing.

Oh it says something alright. You’re just to dense to get it.

DP

Really. You think I sound like Jordan Peterson? And you literally can't think of ANY other source for my ideas? No other philosophical psychopaths I might have read and perhaps you did not?

And you gathered somehow that I think postmodernism is bad, like he does? Really? This is what getting all your information spoon fed on the internet does to people. Turn it off and read some old books or something before the publisher drops them for racism.

Wow.

Nope. Still don’t get it do you? It’s going to be okay. Society is moving on from your type, but no one is out to get you. The existential panic you’re having is wholly synthetic.

No you don't get it. You don't know me. You don't know what I read or don't read. You can't read my mind. You just think you do. So you end up talking to a fantasy you made up yourself. You are "reassuring" a person who doesn't exist. No idea why you think you have some kind of special insight into anonymous strangers, but I'm not a mind reader either.

People glean who you are from the words you write, so you're either A) a terrible communicator, or B) exactly who the poster you're quoting says you are.

Or c) You don't understand what I am saying, or what Jordan Peterson is saying either and how we might differ.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ebay-removes-discontinued-dr-seuss-books-1573824%3famp=1

eBay won’t let you sell or buy the handful of Seuss books because they’ve been deemed offensive.

This is the ripple effect. While the Seuss publishers can make a business decision not to publish, the reality is the accompanying rhetoric has an impact. The takeaway is racism, and it will likely impact the entire catalogue.

Let’s see how book sales of the cat in the hat do year over year moving forward. My guess is there will be a dramatic decrease because most people won’t want to inadvertently offend anyone.

Is Ebay a government entity?

If not, it isn't censorship, its capitalism.

Lots of naivete online about tech oligarchs: they're governmental, alright. Don't fool yourself about this stuff, the person you're cheating might just be yourself.

DP. Governmental is the wrong word. But they do have power, and they are not neutral. People are complaining about how they use their power but have no voice to influence them.

They lost the civil war
They lost WW2
They lost at the Civil Rights Act and follow-on equality

And yet, here we are, still catering to their 17th century sensibilities.

Slavery, Nazism, Jim Crow, Dr Seuss - the long arc towards justice continues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP...whether you know it or not, your words reflect the kind of person you are.

Oh yes, absolutely. But they reflect who you are as well. If I tell you that I didn't get my ideas from Jordan Peterson and you insist that I did anyway, this says are you really not listening to me, because you have no idea where I get my ideas from, unless I tell you. So that's the kind of person you are. Don't listen, make up a reason to dismiss them, then nlow them off with a superior goodbye. Okay. You do you. Doesn't affect me.

I don't know who Jordan Peterson is, and as such, I wasn't the one that made that suggestion.

That said, wherever you got your ideas that shape your worldview, it is not even late 20th century thinking,

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ebay-removes-discontinued-dr-seuss-books-1573824%3famp=1

eBay won’t let you sell or buy the handful of Seuss books because they’ve been deemed offensive.

This is the ripple effect. While the Seuss publishers can make a business decision not to publish, the reality is the accompanying rhetoric has an impact. The takeaway is racism, and it will likely impact the entire catalogue.

Let’s see how book sales of the cat in the hat do year over year moving forward. My guess is there will be a dramatic decrease because most people won’t want to inadvertently offend anyone.

Is Ebay a government entity?

If not, it isn't censorship, its capitalism.

Lots of naivete online about tech oligarchs: they're governmental, alright. Don't fool yourself about this stuff, the person you're cheating might just be yourself.

Lots of naivete about how we got to this point and what we can do about it. There are two choices:
1. Pass a law restricting the free speech of corporations. It would probably be unconstitutional due to Citizens United.
2. Organize boycotts. I'm perfectly willing to participate in these as appropriate. But I rarely buy books or use Ebay- we are a library family. So it doesn't make sense for me to boycott in this case. You are free to give it a go.

B.S. That list isn't MECE, Einstein.

The real option is to re-legilate how tech companies operate. At present they harness public investment for private gain, creating weird private profits and prerogatives. They are among our ages' greatest cancers, along with things like the fossil fuel industry, finance, weapons+defense, etc.

Republicans don't believe in controlling how companies operate.

Either do Democrats. We just like sensible anti-trust regulations.

Ebay doesn't have a monopoly. Plenty of options for buying and selling used goods online. Got any other ideas?

It's got a semi-monopoly, like other tech giants. Not control, but if the big guys don't carry it, it's harder to find. And socially, that's exactly what many people want, so Ebay is favoring the view that these books shojld be hard to find.

So Ebay doesn't have a monopoly.
And most people don't want to buy the book.
So what is the problem? That a small number of people want to buy the book and can't?

There are lots of things that I want to buy that are no longer available for purchase. I wish I could buy a tee shirt like the Gap used to make in the early 2000s. And A particular work blouse that I loved, loved, loved and is no longer made or on Ebay. That isn't censorship.

I buy and sell specialty books on Ebay. Ebay and Amazon are the main markets for this. You can in fact find very old rare books on ebay, people do want them, and if you follow the market, you can figure out a good price easily. For many things, if it isn't on Ebay, it either doesn't exist at all, or the handful of people who might have it aren't selling. Or you've got to hunt specialty markets, like the pre-internet days. For people who want these things, like me, Ebay is the greatest thing in the world. What they allow or don't allow does effect me. People like me should have a voice in how society (through Ebay and other outlets) controls this corner of our lives. I don't see why that's such strange thing to want, even of I cab't have that right now. I really believe that some day we will have better answers that make everybody happier. I
These sorts of controversies have happened before. We figured it out then. We'll figure it now.

Free markets never really existed anyway. Always been controlled one or another, often informally. Free speech also has informal controls. Publisher controlling what they print based on social considerations of racism is a type of informal control, whether you recognize it or not. In fact, informal controls are often difficult to recognize and "subjective." But they are still a type of control if it's harder for me to get a book and even harder to talk about it.

You do have a say. You can choose to do business with Ebay or not. You can choose to try to persuade Ebay, perhaps with others. You can also choose to open your own used book business. That's what freedom is. You chose for yourself. And Ebay chooses for itself.

I think it's really weird that Ebay isn't selling these books anymore. I really do. It surprised me and not in a good way. But there is no reasonable alternative here. The government can't force Ebay to sell those books or the publisher to print them without destroying the foundation of this country.

[Anonymous]

Words and images have meaning when put into context. Meanings are debatable and sometimes objectionable, so sometimes people refrain from using them for reasons that are entirely...reasonable. Goodness. Who knew. Don’t let these revelations scare you. Use them for good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ebay-removes-discontinued-dr-seuss-books-1573824%3famp=1

eBay won’t let you sell or buy the handful of Seuss books because they’ve been deemed offensive.

This is the ripple effect. While the Seuss publishers can make a business decision not to publish, the reality is the accompanying rhetoric has an impact. The takeaway is racism, and it will likely impact the entire catalogue.

Let’s see how book sales of the cat in the hat do year over year moving forward. My guess is there will be a dramatic decrease because most people won’t want to inadvertently offend anyone.

Is Ebay a government entity?

If not, it isn't censorship, its capitalism.

Lots of naivete online about tech oligarchs: they're governmental, alright. Don't fool yourself about this stuff, the person you're cheating might just be yourself.

DP. Governmental is the wrong word. But they do have power, and they are not neutral. People are complaining about how they use their power but have no voice to influence them.

They lost the civil war
They lost WW2
They lost at the Civil Rights Act and follow-on equality

And yet, here we are, still catering to their 17th century sensibilities.

Oh brother. You don't even know who you are. As the others have said, your words do say something about you. You are not the only ones who may glean meanings.

Grow up. This is is not your father's Civil Righs movement. It is yours. Your opponents are different too. The world really has changed, including the people you hate.

[Anonymous]

I feel like I need to get rid of all Dr. Seuss (cat in the hat is a charicature of a black person but hard to ban the most famous book) and at least the original curious George books because that was essentially depicting slavery, but what do I say to my kids? I should never have let them have in the first place- most were gifts, not something I bought, but they like them. What are others telling their kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Words and images have meaning when put into context. Meanings are debatable and sometimes objectionable, so sometimes people refrain from using them for reasons that are entirely...reasonable. Goodness. Who knew. Don’t let these revelations scare you. Use them for good.

If you stop imagining I'm scared or whatever, you'd understand me a lot better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Words and images have meaning when put into context. Meanings are debatable and sometimes objectionable, so sometimes people refrain from using them for reasons that are entirely...reasonable. Goodness. Who knew. Don’t let these revelations scare you. Use them for good.

If you stop imagining I'm scared or whatever, you'd understand me a lot better.

Oh was I talking to you? I doubt you’re my audience. I’m talking to the guys you’re trying to influence.

[Anonymous]

In 1938, Dr Seuss published "The 500 Hats of Bartholomew Cubbins".

In 1939, Hitler invaded Poland.

Don't tell me that his racist books don't have consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like I need to get rid of all Dr. Seuss (cat in the hat is a charicature of a black person but hard to ban the most famous book) and at least the original curious George books because that was essentially depicting slavery, but what do I say to my kids? I should never have let them have in the first place- most were gifts, not something I bought, but they like them. What are others telling their kids?

Some of the older curious George books were really questionable. We tossed them because they struck us as “off” and presenting very little value. The PBS show was better.

You talk about this stuff with your kids when they are old enough to understand how to analyze text within a broader societal context. It varies. Our older kid is definitely aware enough of the history of the world to understand that certain images and texts are dated and propagate some of the more hurtful ideas of their time. They have valid parts still and parts that are not so valid, like any other book. Our house is full of controversial books. As it should be. I don’t cry about things going out of print though. There a millions more to study if that’s what you want to do, and it’s not like the books are being burnt. You can find almost anything at the LoC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Oh brother. You don't even know who you are. As the others have said, your words do say something about you. You are not the only ones who may glean meanings.

Grow up. This is is not your father's Civil Righs movement. It is yours. Your opponents are different too. The world really has changed, including the people you hate.

Actually, the opponents haven't changed. Still generally white male, feeling aggrieved, or being manipulated to feel aggrieved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Oh brother. You don't even know who you are. As the others have said, your words do say something about you. You are not the only ones who may glean meanings.

Grow up. This is is not your father's Civil Righs movement. It is yours. Your opponents are different too. The world really has changed, including the people you hate.

Actually, the opponents haven't changed. Still generally white male, feeling aggrieved, or being manipulated to feel aggrieved.

*nods* their wives too.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:The original line that OP quoted was actually pretty offensive. It was apparently revised in 1978. Here is the original text and drawing:



According to Wikipedia:

"The book has received only one textual revision. In 1978, Geisel agreed to a slight rewording, renaming the character who appears near the end of the story a "Chinese man" instead of a "Chinaman".[14] He also agreed to remove the character's pigtail and the yellow coloring from the character's skin."

The book was pointing out how diverse Mulberry Street was in a dream. It wasn't saying anything derogatory about the person. It was showing how a child was enthralled by all the diversity of the world he dreamed about. The reality of Mulberry Street was that there was no Chinaman or Chinese Man. It was a boring street. The book was wishing the child could meet diverse people and see diverse things. So to me, taking it out signifies that we really just want to experience Mulberry Street as it really was.

The man wrote a book about all the places you could go. All the houses you could live in. He wrote about Sneetches and accepting everyone regardless of the look of your skin. He definitely appreciated cultures. It's all ridiculous.