Confederate Battle Flag

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Lincoln sent a supply ship. They all knew that Sumter had to resupply and they didn't want them to do it.

That still doesn't change the fact that the South was the aggressor.

Leaving troops in a state that seceded wasn't an aggressive act? One ship to resupply, or even two, would be hard pressed to be considered an aggressive act...ships to include war ships with additional troops...not a big leap to assume more than supply.

sloop-of-war USS Pawnee,
steam sloop-of-war USS Powhatan, transporting motorized launches and about 300 sailors
armed screw steamer USS Pocahontas,
Revenue Cutter USRC Harriet Lane,
steamer Baltic transporting about 200 troops,
three hired tug boats with added protection against small arms fire to be used to tow troop and supply barges

All set to arrive on April 11, 1861. What date was the first shot fired?

Lincoln had one focus above all else...saving the union. Not everyone in the north agreed and we know the south wasn't on board. He also had states that had slaves that hadn't joined the Confederacy that he didn't want to swing...such as Maryland...so perception was very important.

Do I think Lincoln was the aggressor here? Sure. Do I think what he was attempting to do, on many levels beyond the ability to convey in this forum, was right? Sure do.

Fort Sumter was FEDERAL land and property, not South Carolina. South Carolina was attempting to seize a fort that wasn't theirs and which the Confederates had no lawful claim to.

Amazing how Lincoln got the popular support he needed after the 'battle'. Well...your limited focus/understanding is duly noted.

Lincoln got popular support because everyone saw the South as the aggressor and the Union at Fort Sumter as the victim.

LMAO

Remember the Maine!!

Lameass analogy. The South *actually* attacked Fort Sumter, dipstick.

You either don't get it, don't want to get it or just don't care to consider the whole picture. The Remember the Maine was a facetious comment as an illustration that you can't just take ONE thing to understand a complex set of events. So, that's that. Have a great weekend.

I know that George Bush has confused things, but the first person to shoot is generally the one who started the war. "Remember the Maine" is about misinformation, not complexity.

Bush? LMAO

Ironic, given the discussion, that you stated...''generally the one''...

Look...there is a plethora of information out there and if history is interesting to you it is some good reading. To consider that Lincoln was guilty of actions that precipitated a response that began the war does not absolve the south of it's secession or firing upon Sumter. Nor does it, IMO, indict Lincoln. But to not consider the facts you are missing out on the whole of the picture. I will never understand why some people cannot allow for anything less than an absolute to support their position. The fact is that Lincoln sent ships that had nothing to do with a simple resupply. Those ships and the men on them would lead any reasonable person to conclude there was more to it than that. Enough to even speculate of a possible invasion. Especially considering the size of the fort could not support than many men. Lincoln essentially gave the south two options...allow the 'fleet' to arrive and resupply the fort or act aggressively. To accomplish his stated goals he needed them to choose the latter and to give that the best chance he sent war ships with the barges.

If you have any interest...there are plenty of sites that discuss this...and btw...I am not a southern apologists...I am a lover of history and facts...ever read about FDR and WWII? Actions he took against Japan BEFORE Pearl?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:State Rep. Jenny Horne, a Republican and descendant of Jefferson Davis, offers an impassioned argument for taking down the flag:

http://youtu.be/6a6Hup6tWKQ

She was awesome.

[Anonymous]

It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

That was one factor...there were more...not the least of which was the video poker group spending a LOT of money in opposition to him.

[Anonymous]

South Carolina state government removed for good the Confederate battle flag from the statehouse grounds in Columbia on Friday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

This is exactly what it is. Politics. I live in South Carolina, and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of South Carolinians have other things to worry about. People I work with (black, white, foreign-born) don't have the time to protest the flag in Columbia. They have day jobs. They are also savvy enough to understand that public figures jump on the opportunity to advance their careers. Nikki Hayley is delusional if she thinks a former seamstress can get much further than Columbia, but I command the girl for trying. This is very American

Sorry for rambling, I'm just really disgusted by politicians who exploit yet another tragedy. Psychopaths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

This is exactly what it is. Politics. I live in South Carolina, and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of South Carolinians have other things to worry about. People I work with (black, white, foreign-born) don't have the time to protest the flag in Columbia. They have day jobs. They are also savvy enough to understand that public figures jump on the opportunity to advance their careers. Nikki Hayley is delusional if she thinks a former seamstress can get much further than Columbia, but I command the girl for trying. This is very American

Sorry for rambling, I'm just really disgusted by politicians who exploit yet another tragedy. Psychopaths.

You just don't get it. And you never will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

This is exactly what it is. Politics. I live in South Carolina, and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of South Carolinians have other things to worry about. People I work with (black, white, foreign-born) don't have the time to protest the flag in Columbia. They have day jobs. They are also savvy enough to understand that public figures jump on the opportunity to advance their careers. Nikki Hayley is delusional if she thinks a former seamstress can get much further than Columbia, but I command the girl for trying. This is very American

Sorry for rambling, I'm just really disgusted by politicians who exploit yet another tragedy. Psychopaths.

Nevertheless, these psychopaths recognize that the flag was installed on the Capitol Grounds as a protest against desegregation. And they realize that this particular act should not be condoned by modern government.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

This is exactly what it is. Politics. I live in South Carolina, and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of South Carolinians have other things to worry about. People I work with (black, white, foreign-born) don't have the time to protest the flag in Columbia. They have day jobs. They are also savvy enough to understand that public figures jump on the opportunity to advance their careers. Nikki Hayley is delusional if she thinks a former seamstress can get much further than Columbia, but I command the girl for trying. This is very American

Sorry for rambling, I'm just really disgusted by politicians who exploit yet another tragedy. Psychopaths.

Wow, there is a lot packed into that response. Those protesting the flag don't have jobs, or at least day jobs? Nikki Haley is simply a "former seamstress" who is potentially "delusional"? Haley, who based on the best evidence is a grown woman, is simply a "girl" to you? It sounds like someone is bent out of shape about others not knowing their place.

[Anonymous]

You don't control the way others interpret symbols..... We would all be well served to remember this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of interesting to see how politicians and talking heads are bullshitting about people coming together, finding unity etc. It makes me sad the rest of the country is gladly buying into it. SC is still the same it was yesterday, with the same problems. The flag is just an object, after all.

If it was just an object, not so many people would care so much about it. Do you know Governor David Beasley, a Republican, lost his election to a Democrat because he dared to move the confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome to where it was until this morning?

This is exactly what it is. Politics. I live in South Carolina, and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of South Carolinians have other things to worry about. People I work with (black, white, foreign-born) don't have the time to protest the flag in Columbia. They have day jobs. They are also savvy enough to understand that public figures jump on the opportunity to advance their careers. Nikki Hayley is delusional if she thinks a former seamstress can get much further than Columbia, but I command the girl for trying. This is very American

Sorry for rambling, I'm just really disgusted by politicians who exploit yet another tragedy. Psychopaths.

Nevertheless, these psychopaths recognize that the flag was installed on the Capitol Grounds as a protest against desegregation. And they realize that this particular act should not be condoned by modern government.

+1000. That is the crux of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You don't control the way others interpret symbols..... We would all be well served to remember this.

That cuts both ways, which is why most thinking people don't buy into the "heritage not hate" crap that apologists keep putting out there, because thinking people are acutely aware that the only major historical events associated with the Confederate flag are the bloody and awful Civil War which cost so many lives, which was indeed about slavery, after which the Confederate flag was largely abandoned and laid dormant for decades, only to be resurrected in connection with the KKK in the early 1900s, and making a strong resurgence in protest to desegregation and the Civil Rights movement. Sadly those are things that have not been correctly, completely or accurately taught in many southern States, leaving some to believe the revisionist version and deny those associations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You don't control the way others interpret symbols..... We would all be well served to remember this.

That cuts both ways, which is why most thinking people don't buy into the "heritage not hate" crap that apologists keep putting out there, because thinking people are acutely aware that the only major historical events associated with the Confederate flag are the bloody and awful Civil War which cost so many lives, which was indeed about slavery, after which the Confederate flag was largely abandoned and laid dormant for decades, only to be resurrected in connection with the KKK in the early 1900s, and making a strong resurgence in protest to desegregation and the Civil Rights movement. Sadly those are things that have not been correctly, completely or accurately taught in many southern States, leaving some to believe the revisionist version and deny those associations.

What you are doing here is using 'education' to ensure that progressive doctrine is followed. The intent here is to follow this 'education' with shame and bullying to ensure the 'lesson' cemented in the brain. What you have stated is revisionist history - ask Hillary Clinton; were she and Bill 'uneducated' when they supported that flag in Arkansas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You don't control the way others interpret symbols..... We would all be well served to remember this.

That cuts both ways, which is why most thinking people don't buy into the "heritage not hate" crap that apologists keep putting out there, because thinking people are acutely aware that the only major historical events associated with the Confederate flag are the bloody and awful Civil War which cost so many lives, which was indeed about slavery, after which the Confederate flag was largely abandoned and laid dormant for decades, only to be resurrected in connection with the KKK in the early 1900s, and making a strong resurgence in protest to desegregation and the Civil Rights movement. Sadly those are things that have not been correctly, completely or accurately taught in many southern States, leaving some to believe the revisionist version and deny those associations.

It does cut both ways!!! I am pro flag. I mean precisely that- your description of the flags meaning differs greatly from mine. If you understand that my flying the flag is not about segregation (for me!) then you'll understand my position better, just as I should open my mind to yours.

That approach does not necessarily lead to agreement, but at least acknowledges that there are real people with differing views.