Woodward HS boundary study - BCC, Blair, Einstein, WJ, Kennedy, Northwood, Wheaton, Whitman impacts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.

Not PP, but walking would require crossing Veirs Mill, Connecticut, and Randolph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.

Not PP, but walking would require crossing Veirs Mill, Connecticut, and Randolph.

Yeah, it's terrible - but, MCPS currently requires high school students to do that. Even middle school students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

If your argument is that a majority of Supreme Court is willing to throw any and all case law and precedent out the window in pursuit of their ideological goals, I mean, yes, that does seem to be true, but in that case anything could be illegal or illegal, depending on the personal feelings of 5 members of the Supreme Court with lifetime appointments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

If your argument is that a majority of Supreme Court is willing to throw any and all case law and precedent out the window in pursuit of their ideological goals, I mean, yes, that does seem to be true, but in that case anything could be illegal or illegal, depending on the personal feelings of 5 members of the Supreme Court with lifetime appointments.

I'm just saying that the way I read the Supreme Court decision, if MCPS bases decisions on race as a factor, it risks lawsuits.

“[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

That's pretty broad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

What?! Those are not at all the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

What?! Those are not at all the same.

Are you saying that the MCPS CO and the BOE has never publicly stated / documented that it makes boundary decisions, in part, based upon race and ethnicity (ex. when it considers the demographics and ethnic / racial diversity of the school)? And that School Assignment / Boundary decision is not enforced by the School Locator by a resident's address? In order to change this school assignment, it's by individual student through a COSA.

How is that not discriminating based upon race?

“[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

What?! Those are not at all the same.

Are you saying that the MCPS CO and the BOE has never publicly stated / documented that it makes boundary decisions, in part, based upon race and ethnicity (ex. when it considers the demographics and ethnic / racial diversity of the school)? And that School Assignment / Boundary decision is not enforced by the School Locator by a resident's address? In order to change this school assignment, it's by individual student through a COSA.

How is that not discriminating based upon race?

“[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

They aren't selecting individual students based on race. They aren't saying, you are White so you can't go to this school. They are trying to balance demographics through their boundary decisions but don't control which specific students live in those areas and attend those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

If your argument is that a majority of Supreme Court is willing to throw any and all case law and precedent out the window in pursuit of their ideological goals, I mean, yes, that does seem to be true, but in that case anything could be illegal or illegal, depending on the personal feelings of 5 members of the Supreme Court with lifetime appointments.

Were you also upset when Brown v. Board overthrew precedent? You can either respect stare decisis or not, but you can’t use it only for your preferred outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

If your argument is that a majority of Supreme Court is willing to throw any and all case law and precedent out the window in pursuit of their ideological goals, I mean, yes, that does seem to be true, but in that case anything could be illegal or illegal, depending on the personal feelings of 5 members of the Supreme Court with lifetime appointments.

Were you also upset when Brown v. Board overthrew precedent? You can either respect stare decisis or not, but you can’t use it only for your preferred outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.

Not PP, but walking would require crossing Veirs Mill, Connecticut, and Randolph.

Yeah, it's terrible - but, MCPS currently requires high school students to do that. Even middle school students.

What MS students? Holiday Park gets busses for for the middle schools.

In addition to dangerous road crossings, it’s a 29 minute walk at best. That’s a half hour for all kinds of things to happen to kids on their way to school. Who is liable for that time? MCPS? Parents? Given what actually happens along those routes, I don’t want my daughter walking to school. I’m fortunate that I am able to provide transportation, but many families can’t.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.

Not PP, but walking would require crossing Veirs Mill, Connecticut, and Randolph.

Yeah, it's terrible - but, MCPS currently requires high school students to do that. Even middle school students.

What MS students? Holiday Park gets busses for for the middle schools.

In addition to dangerous road crossings, it’s a 29 minute walk at best. That’s a half hour for all kinds of things to happen to kids on their way to school. Who is liable for that time? MCPS? Parents? Given what actually happens along those routes, I don’t want my daughter walking to school. I’m fortunate that I am able to provide transportation, but many families can’t.

MCPS expects high school students to walk up to 2.0 miles and middle school students to walk up to 1.5 miles. So 40 minutes and 30 minutes, respectively, at a walking speed of 3 mph.

Newport Mill MS students are expected to cross Veirs Mill walking. Wood MS students are expected to cross Norbeck walking. Loiederman MS students are expected to cross Connecticut walking. Eastern MS students are expected to cross University walking. Just for your reference.

[Anonymous]

Students can also take the ride-on bus to school if there is no school bus..

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.

Not PP, but walking would require crossing Veirs Mill, Connecticut, and Randolph.

Yeah, it's terrible - but, MCPS currently requires high school students to do that. Even middle school students.

What MS students? Holiday Park gets busses for for the middle schools.

In addition to dangerous road crossings, it’s a 29 minute walk at best. That’s a half hour for all kinds of things to happen to kids on their way to school. Who is liable for that time? MCPS? Parents? Given what actually happens along those routes, I don’t want my daughter walking to school. I’m fortunate that I am able to provide transportation, but many families can’t.

MCPS expects high school students to walk up to 2.0 miles and middle school students to walk up to 1.5 miles. So 40 minutes and 30 minutes, respectively, at a walking speed of 3 mph.

Newport Mill MS students are expected to cross Veirs Mill walking. Wood MS students are expected to cross Norbeck walking. Loiederman MS students are expected to cross Connecticut walking. Eastern MS students are expected to cross University walking. Just for your reference.

Any chance these expectations are contributing toward the 25% chronic absenteeism? I taught a MS student last year who was in a walking zone (not DCC) and he flat out told me he didn’t come to school when it was raining or when there was rain in the forecast for the afternoon. Needless to say, he was absent a lot!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.

Not PP, but walking would require crossing Veirs Mill, Connecticut, and Randolph.

Yeah, it's terrible - but, MCPS currently requires high school students to do that. Even middle school students.

What MS students? Holiday Park gets busses for for the middle schools.

In addition to dangerous road crossings, it’s a 29 minute walk at best. That’s a half hour for all kinds of things to happen to kids on their way to school. Who is liable for that time? MCPS? Parents? Given what actually happens along those routes, I don’t want my daughter walking to school. I’m fortunate that I am able to provide transportation, but many families can’t.

MCPS expects high school students to walk up to 2.0 miles and middle school students to walk up to 1.5 miles. So 40 minutes and 30 minutes, respectively, at a walking speed of 3 mph.

Newport Mill MS students are expected to cross Veirs Mill walking. Wood MS students are expected to cross Norbeck walking. Loiederman MS students are expected to cross Connecticut walking. Eastern MS students are expected to cross University walking. Just for your reference.

Any chance these expectations are contributing toward the 25% chronic absenteeism? I taught a MS student last year who was in a walking zone (not DCC) and he flat out told me he didn’t come to school when it was raining or when there was rain in the forecast for the afternoon. Needless to say, he was absent a lot!

No.