Woodward HS boundary study - BCC, Blair, Einstein, WJ, Kennedy, Northwood, Wheaton, Whitman impacts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a person who's child may be rezoned from WJ to Einstein and is favor of this change if it's not too disruptive to their high school experience.

My DH does not feel similarly and thinks that the recent supreme court decision on affirmative action may limit MCPS's ability to use diversity as a factor in boundary studies/rezoning. He thinks that any legal action on those grounds may been seen as having merit. Thoughts?

MCPS doesn't use race. They use SES which just happens to be a really good proxy in MoCo.

What they use is the FARMS rate.

Another really good proxy!

No, it's not, it's a bad proxy. If you know that a student receives FARMS, you will not be able to predict the student's race/ethnicity with any reliability. If you know a student's race/ethnicity, your prediction of the student's FARMS status will frequently be unreliable.

^^^

Looking at the 2022-2023 data:

0-20% of white students, 60% of black students, 71% of Hispanic students, and 0-36% of Asian-American students receive FARMS. So even if someone says, "Here is a Hispanic student in MCPS, does this student receive FARMS?" the answer will be no for 3 out of 10 Hispanic students. If you say yes, you will be wrong 30% of the time.

Also, of students who receive FARMS, 30% are black, 56% are Hispanic, and 15% are neither black or Hispanic. (Yes, that's 101%, because of rounding.) So even if someone says, "Here is a student in MCPS who receives FARMS, is this student Hispanic?" the answer will be no for 5 out of 10 students who receive FARMS. If you say yes, you will be wrong basically half the time. Even if someone says, "Here is a student in MCPS who receives FARMS, is this student Hispanic or black?" the answer will be no for 3 out of 20 students. If you say yes, you will be wrong 15% of the time.

This is why FARMS is a bad proxy for race/ethnicity in MCPS.

And this is why we really should consider Stats as important as Calc. We're talking policies that aim to address differences across large populations. It doesn't need to be 100% predictive to be effective -- it just has to be significantly more predictive/more likely for the attributes/groups in question, which it is.

I'd suggest, in any case, that an SES indicator like FARMS/ever-FARMS is more just than a racial indicator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
And this is why we really should consider Stats as important as Calc. We're talking policies that aim to address differences across large populations. It doesn't need to be 100% predictive to be effective -- it just has to be significantly more predictive/more likely for the attributes/groups in question, which it is.

I'd suggest, in any case, that an SES indicator like FARMS/ever-FARMS is more just than a racial indicator.

FARMS (or ever FARMS) is not an indicator of socioeconomic status. It is an indicator of just plain economic status.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And this is why we really should consider Stats as important as Calc. We're talking policies that aim to address differences across large populations. It doesn't need to be 100% predictive to be effective -- it just has to be significantly more predictive/more likely for the attributes/groups in question, which it is.

I'd suggest, in any case, that an SES indicator like FARMS/ever-FARMS is more just than a racial indicator.

FARMS (or ever FARMS) is not an indicator of socioeconomic status. It is an indicator of just plain economic status.

Even better, then. Justice should be blind.

In any case, quibbling about terminology is a distraction. For the purposes of this discussion, economic status can be seen as part of socioeconomic status, and FARMS/ever-FARMS is legitimate, if not fully definitive, in that regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a person who's child may be rezoned from WJ to Einstein and is favor of this change if it's not too disruptive to their high school experience.

My DH does not feel similarly and thinks that the recent supreme court decision on affirmative action may limit MCPS's ability to use diversity as a factor in boundary studies/rezoning. He thinks that any legal action on those grounds may been seen as having merit. Thoughts?

No. MCPS was already not allowed to make decisions based on the race or gender of a student.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2010/12/14/eisenber.pdf

But they used race anyway. The Supreme Court decision wasn’t on point but it does give insight into its thinking. Policy FAA is on shakier ground now for sure.

For the demographic factor, Policy FAA says:

Demographic characteristics of student population
Analyses of options take into account the impact of various options on the
overall populations of affected schools. Options should especially strive to
create a diverse student body in each of the affected schools in alignment
with Board Policy ACD, Quality Integrated Education. Demographic data
showing the impact of various options include the following: racial/ethnic
composition of the student population, the socioeconomic composition of
the student population, the level of English language learners, and other
reliable demographic indicators and participation in specific educational
programs.

The Supreme Court held that universities may not consider the race of an individual applicant in the decision to admit or not admit that applicant. That does not apply here. MCPS is not considering the race of any individual student.

Yes, that’s what the Supreme Court held in that case (why it wasn’t on point). Do you think the Supreme Court generally likes or dislikes education policies that consider race?

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, our legal system is not based on the Supreme Court's potential opinions on general topics.

+1 Except I am a lawyer. If MCPS were selecting students for magnet programs based on a racial checkbox, I could see potential overlap from yesterday's case. Except they don't, and we're not talking about magnets in this discussion, we're talking about school boundaries. There is absolutely case law on the authority of school boards to set their own attendance boundaries, and to consider diversity when doing so.

Before the Supreme Court ruling... I don't think you can speak on this authoritatively since the ruling hasn't been tested in court yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aren’t people going to flip out about their home values if they are redistricted to a “worse” high school? I can see people freaking out if their neighborhood goes from WJ to Einstein. Or even Whitman to BCC or WJ. That’s potentially a couple $100k loss in home values. What about those that stretched to by a smaller/older home in one of those neighborhoods because of the assigned schools? I’m guessing mcps won’t care at all about that?

Houses are more expensive in BCC than Whitman currently.

[Anonymous]

Any ideas if some of the Woodacres houses, which are literally next door to Westland, might get reassigned from Pyle to Westland? Also - what about Westbrook. It is currently assigned to BCC but I think it may be closer to Whitman. Would they consider reassigning Westbrook to Whitman? If increasing diversity at Whitman is a consideration, that certainly won't help!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any ideas if some of the Woodacres houses, which are literally next door to Westland, might get reassigned from Pyle to Westland? Also - what about Westbrook. It is currently assigned to BCC but I think it may be closer to Whitman. Would they consider reassigning Westbrook to Whitman? If increasing diversity at Whitman is a consideration, that certainly won't help!

I'm sure they will consider it as one of several options. Whether they will select that option is anyone's guess.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

Wet walk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

Wet walk?

Randolph Hills and Rock Creek are west of Holiday Park. Wheaton HS is east of Holiday Park.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

She can take a bus from Holiday Park to Einstein.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much of this is because of poor planning. Some of that is on MCPS, but most of that is on the county (M-NCPPC/Planning Board/County Council). It only takes one period of time where development-favorable policies are enacted -- increased density allowances, reprieve of impact taxes, exceptions to land set-asides for municipal needs (schools among them) -- and developers jump, with there really being no way to unwind it later. Throw in some short-sighted school closures that came with long-term, giveaway leases to favored special interests by the county executive/council. Then cook that up with 25 years of chronic council underfunding of capital projects ("Hey, let's just ask them to push these out a few years..."), and you get too many students and not enough school spaces.

This has happened in many areas of the county, but down-county, most especially Wheaton & below, was particularly affected because of the relative scarcity of undeveloped land combined with relatively high density. And when Blair got moved to its current outside-the-beltway location, it was during that facility closure period, so they weren't attending to back-filling to cover the deeper inside-the-beltway area. West of the tracks still had Whitman & BCC, and they got insulated (what a shock!).

Similarly shocking is that MCPS, when faced with the cost of provisioning a new HS closer to downtown SS/Takoma Park, elected to turn their efforts towards relief of WJ, instead -- the Woodward solution was less expensive and posed far fewer problems, despite the community complaints (that happens no matter the location/configuration -- can't please 'em all). They had to sell that with the nod to some kind of relief for DCC -- more crowded, in general, than anything to the west of the tracks, with more coming from demographics and the differential effects of the noted development-friendly policies; however, the nature of that might be just from the marginal pull of a Woodward magnet.

If that ends up being the case, and if more holistic boundary shifts are avoided, it will be because of the fine efforts of the W-area contingent, those here and elsewhere. Like it or not, the Federal government delegates school administration to the states (or, perhaps more Constitutionally precise, it is reserved to the states, despite any Federal funding/regulation), and MD delegates it to county-level districts, not town. MCPS, then, has the responsibility to provide reasonably equivalent educational services to all of its students (equal protection). Neighborhood schools, sensible boundaries and easily-accessible magnets are great ideas, but only if you're making sure to get your county decision-makers in line to pony up to provide that to everybody, not just ensure/preserve that for yourself.

There's no land in SS for a high school, and MoCo doesn't have the stomach to spend the tens of million to acquire (and still more to deal with all the lawsuits when they use adverse possession to assemble a property) when the Woodward property was already in the portfolio.

As to WJ - this year it's 650 students over capacity. That's more than half the entire DCC overage across all 5 high schools.

I don't begrudge them doing something to relieve WJ's overcrowding. That is clearly necessary. But they should have built the addition at Einstein regardless, which makes much more sense than having Woodward as a solution for the DCC. The new seats at Northwood and Kennedy aren't enough.

You can just bus the DCC kids all over the county. It's not like they're W students or anything.

I have never understood this "all over the county" rhetoric on DCUM, when it comes to the DCC. Wheaton HS is less than 2 miles from Kennedy HS. Northwood HS is less than a mile and a half from Blair HS. Northwood HS is 3 miles from Einstein HS. And Einstein HS is less than 4 miles from Woodward HS. I guess if it's not literally the absolutely closest high school, it's "all over the county"?

DP - I can't speak for the PP who referenced DCC kids being bussed all over the county, but I've heard that crack before. Typically it's said by W-school parents who deign to allow DCC kids bussed to their schools but refuse the same for their kids. So, DCC kids' time is less valuable or... something? Anyway, it's not about bussing within the DCC, it's to other schools outside the DCC, e.g., Woodward, which would be a schlep for kids in-bounds for Kennedy or Northwood.

Or even the further areas zoned for Einstein, some of which are 7+ miles from Woodward.

Is anybody saying, "Oh! Let's rezone DTSS for Woodward!"? I haven't heard it.

But that's just it--there really isn't any part of the DCC that makes sense to be rezoned to Woodward. Some of the closest DCC areas to Woodward are within the walk zones for Wheaton and/or Einstein, so they're not being rezoned. So you've got to look at areas that are already getting bus service to their base HS, and those areas also happen to be farther from Woodward.

Except there are areas assigned to DCC schools now that used to be assigned to Woodward before it closed. The Randolph Hills neighborhood is one.

Yes. Randolph Hills could go to Woodward. But other parts of Viers Mill ES are inside Wheaton's walk zone.

Holiday Park is not inside Wheaton’s walk zone. There’s just a creek separating it from Randolph Hills.

MCPS doesn't have any Wheaton bus stops in the Holiday Park area. They expect the kids to walk:

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/transportation/busroutes/04782bus.pdf

Just shared this with my rising 7th grader and she said “This is why I would rather go to Einstein”. This is ridiculous. I would make her walk to Randolph Hills to catch bust over letting her walk to Wheaton HS.

What is the problem with walking from Holiday Park to Wheaton HS? Is it too far? It's 1.0 miles from the Holiday Park Senior Center to Wheaton HS.