Politics Free Church?

[Anonymous]

Just curious… if we went back a few decades, would the church of Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. have been too political for you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jesus' teachings were inherently political and revolutionary. They shape how you view society and your interactions with your fellow human beings. You can't separate the church from politics.

This. I’m a liberal practicing Catholic. If my parish was not actively involved in social justice, I would not feel people were sincere about their faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just curious… if we went back a few decades, would the church of Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. have been too political for you?

IMO, King used the church (effectively) to advance his political views. Also IMO, religion has been used this way through the centuries.

Religion was invented by humans and humans are politically motivated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi all,

I am looking for a church in the DC area. Preferably Episcopalian or Presbyterian, but honestly any mainline Protestant church will do. The difficulty is I am looking for a church that is NOT overly political - seems to be an issue in DC, where all of the churches are either aggressively conservative or liberal. I am trying to avoid lectures about how MAGA/social justice is the way, the truth, and the light and just trying to find a traditional church. Any recommendations? I don't want to be subjected to sermons about critical race theory or Donald Trump being the most Christian president ever (which, as a Christian, lol no). Any suggestions?

Thanks!

What?

Jesus preached social justice. Have you read the Bible? At all? Jesus’ tirades against the wealthy, and the moneychangers and the Pharisees and the fascist Roman rulers (Pontius Pilate, for example.)


You seem to be looking for a social club, not a church. I hear Zog Sports has some openings.

Christian charity, being voluntary and heartfelt, is utterly distinct from the compulsory, impersonal mandates of the state.


One can scour the New Testament and find nary a word from Jesus that calls for empowering politicians or bureaucrats to allocate resources, pick winners and losers, tell entrepreneurs how to run their businesses, impose minimum wages or maximum prices, compel workers to join unions, or even to raise taxes.

One of the charges that led to Jesus’s crucifixion was indeed tax evasion.


Christians are commanded in Scripture to love, to pray, to be kind, to serve, to forgive, to be truthful, to worship the one God, to learn and grow in both spirit and character. All of those things are very personal. They require no politicians, police, bureaucrats, political parties, or programs.


The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want,” says Jesus in Matthew 26:11 and Mark 14:7. The key words there are you can help and want to help. He didn’t say, “We’re going to make you help whether you like it or not.”

Jesus clearly held that compassion is a wholesome value to possess, but I know of no passage in the New Testament that suggests it’s a value he’d impose by force or gunpoint—in other words, by socialist politics.

Socialists are fond of suggesting that Jesus disdained the rich, citing two particular moments: his driving of the money-changers from the Temple and his remark that it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. In the first instance, Jesus was angry that God’s house was being misused. Indeed, he never drove a money-changer from a bank or a marketplace. In the second, he was warning that with great wealth, great temptations come, too.

These were admonitions against misplaced priorities, not class warfare messages.

I’ve heard this interpretation before, from the “prosperity gospel” types who also felt the state should define civil marriage based on their interpretation of the Bible and ban abortion based on their interpretation of a Biblical commandment.

PP so it's ok that our government turns away refugees? People who are applying for asylum?

[Anonymous]

Basically PP you are saying the Gummint can't force you to share your money for the sake of others. It shouldn't force people to do something against their values.

But what about the opposite? The Government that is supposed to represent me does things that I consider morally reprehensible: starting wars, trading arms to unstable nations, turning away refugees (Jesus was one once remember), nuclear weapons etc. Are all these just peachy keen by you then?

[Anonymous]

Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

So you voluntarily live a very humble life because you donate so much money to the poor? Jesus was pretty clear several times about rich people needing to give away money and possessions.

The Catholic Church has amassed massive amounts of wealth. Is that what Jesus wanted? Not sure they are coming from an unbiased perspective.

[Anonymous]

Also the Vatican refuses to pay taxes on it's stock dividends. So much for "rendering unto Caesar"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

Specious argument. "Every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine..." doesn't need to be "just totally wrong" for loyalty to the Church to be a bad idea.

This comes across as an overstatement made to stop a legitimate conversation. So what if Catholicism has had a "pretty clear and long intellectual tradition"? It also has a long history of child rape and cover up and that is always more important than any good the church or any entity has ever done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

Specious argument. "Every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine..." doesn't need to be "just totally wrong" for loyalty to the Church to be a bad idea.

This comes across as an overstatement made to stop a legitimate conversation. So what if Catholicism has had a "pretty clear and long intellectual tradition"? It also has a long history of child rape and cover up and that is always more important than any good the church or any entity has ever done.

It also comes across as an excuse to stay in an abusive, sick relationship -- "He beats me but I love him and he keeps a roof over my head."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

Specious argument. "Every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine..." doesn't need to be "just totally wrong" for loyalty to the Church to be a bad idea.

This comes across as an overstatement made to stop a legitimate conversation. So what if Catholicism has had a "pretty clear and long intellectual tradition"? It also has a long history of child rape and cover up and that is always more important than any good the church or any entity has ever done.

I mentioned this because I was discussing thongs with the prior Catholic poster. If you are not Catholic then the teaching is I suppose not binding on you m. I have no idea how Protestants determine these things since there's so many different sects. Everyone is their own pope I guess. Anyways, I have no problem with you being as socialist as you want with your own money. You can donate to the Secretary of the Treasury at any time. Please do so and let us know if you found it spiritually valuable.

If you think the Catholic Church and its billions of members did more harm than good throughout the whole arc of history then you don't seem like much of a Christian to me. Too bad we didn't mass murder over 100 million people in 80 years like the followers of Marx then we really could have created your glorious revolution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

Specious argument. "Every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine..." doesn't need to be "just totally wrong" for loyalty to the Church to be a bad idea.

This comes across as an overstatement made to stop a legitimate conversation. So what if Catholicism has had a "pretty clear and long intellectual tradition"? It also has a long history of child rape and cover up and that is always more important than any good the church or any entity has ever done.

I mentioned this because I was discussing thongs with the prior Catholic poster. If you are not Catholic then the teaching is I suppose not binding on you m. I have no idea how Protestants determine these things since there's so many different sects. Everyone is their own pope I guess. Anyways, I have no problem with you being as socialist as you want with your own money. You can donate to the Secretary of the Treasury at any time. Please do so and let us know if you found it spiritually valuable.

If you think the Catholic Church and its billions of members did more harm than good throughout the whole arc of history then you don't seem like much of a Christian to me. Too bad we didn't mass murder over 100 million people in 80 years like the followers of Marx then we really could have created your glorious revolution.

No need to be so defensive, over-reaching, over-assuming and insulting. Just be Catholic if it makes you feel good and makes you feel like a part of an age-old, noble enterprise that also happens to have supported child sexual abuse.

As for "Everyone has their own Pope, I guess" please know that non-catholics and former ones (like me) don't feel the need for a Pope and generally aren't hurt by attempts, such as yours, to insult former or non-Catholics with comparisons to Marx or other authoritarian criminals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moth Catholic Churches do a pretty good job of not being too overtly political in my view. Individual Catholics aside, I am talking about the priests and the general parish culture.

By the way, PP, Jesus said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Christianity was and is revolutionary. But "political and revolutionary"? Nope. Go read also the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the Gospel of John.

If you want to be political, then be political. But don't make your politics a false idol or twist Our Lord into some sort of proto-marxist.

Acts of the Apostles Ch2:
44All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds* to all, as any had need

Isn't that Marxism? 🤔 Oh I will wait for the inevitable 'but but but that's different' which is always the go to for the Christian conservative.

I don't recall anything in that passage about them giving all of their money to Rome and then vaguely hoping Rome would use it wisely.

In any event this is a long debate but we are Catholic. Catholicism has a pretty clear and long intellectual tradition. Was every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine just totally wrong? That seems odd. What about all the encyclicals specifically addressing socialist doctrine. Were they all wrong too?

Specious argument. "Every Catholic intellectual from the founding of the Church until the development of Marxist doctrine..." doesn't need to be "just totally wrong" for loyalty to the Church to be a bad idea.

This comes across as an overstatement made to stop a legitimate conversation. So what if Catholicism has had a "pretty clear and long intellectual tradition"? It also has a long history of child rape and cover up and that is always more important than any good the church or any entity has ever done.

I mentioned this because I was discussing thongs with the prior Catholic poster. If you are not Catholic then the teaching is I suppose not binding on you m. I have no idea how Protestants determine these things since there's so many different sects. Everyone is their own pope I guess. Anyways, I have no problem with you being as socialist as you want with your own money. You can donate to the Secretary of the Treasury at any time. Please do so and let us know if you found it spiritually valuable.

If you think the Catholic Church and its billions of members did more harm than good throughout the whole arc of history then you don't seem like much of a Christian to me. Too bad we didn't mass murder over 100 million people in 80 years like the followers of Marx then we really could have created your glorious revolution.

No need to be so defensive, over-reaching, over-assuming and insulting. Just be Catholic if it makes you feel good and makes you feel like a part of an age-old, noble enterprise that also happens to have supported child sexual abuse.

As for "Everyone has their own Pope, I guess" please know that non-catholics and former ones (like me) don't feel the need for a Pope and generally aren't hurt by attempts, such as yours, to insult former or non-Catholics with comparisons to Marx or other authoritarian criminals.

The Marx reference is specifically related to the proposition that Christians are morally compelled to be "political and revolutionary," which is contrary to the accepted understanding of the moral precepts of the Christian faith as understood by 99% of people from the time of Christ until the writings of Marx. Its not Christian terminology.

I know your real purpose on this thread is just to spew hateful bilge but there's actually a specific intellectual proposition under discussion here. Do try to keep up.