Why is ante bellum racist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

Because most of the people who do wear those robes are actually quite explicit that they are promoting white supremacy, so I trust what they say about themselves too.

Ooh, I get it now.

Explicit white supremacy = Bad, because only bad people would be explicitly racist

Implicit white supremacy = Allowable, because they’re just nice people celebrating the trappings of slave owning plantation life while ignoring the history of slavery

Sounds like you are trying to be sarcastic, but you got it right. I reject the whole framing of what is now called implicit racism as an absurd attempt to focus on appearance and free expression while doing nothing about the real racial disparities in income, education, housing, voting rights etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Gone with the wind is awesome. There’s a reason it’s a classic. So there’s slaves in it, there were slaves then. Would you prefer a civil war film that has robots instead of slaves? Or squirrels?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

Because most of the people who do wear those robes are actually quite explicit that they are promoting white supremacy, so I trust what they say about themselves too.

Ooh, I get it now.

Explicit white supremacy = Bad, because only bad people would be explicitly racist

Implicit white supremacy = Allowable, because they’re just nice people celebrating the trappings of slave owning plantation life while ignoring the history of slavery

Sounds like you are trying to be sarcastic, but you got it right. I reject the whole framing of what is now called implicit racism as an absurd attempt to focus on appearance and free expression while doing nothing about the real racial disparities in income, education, housing, voting rights etc.

IME, the people who recognize and are concerned about implicit racism are not the ones doing nothing about racial disparities in income, education, housing, voting rights, etc., and the people who reject implicit racism generally do not want racial equity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

Because most of the people who do wear those robes are actually quite explicit that they are promoting white supremacy, so I trust what they say about themselves too.

Ooh, I get it now.

Explicit white supremacy = Bad, because only bad people would be explicitly racist

Implicit white supremacy = Allowable, because they’re just nice people celebrating the trappings of slave owning plantation life while ignoring the history of slavery

Sounds like you are trying to be sarcastic, but you got it right. I reject the whole framing of what is now called implicit racism as an absurd attempt to focus on appearance and free expression while doing nothing about the real racial disparities in income, education, housing, voting rights etc.

IME, the people who recognize and are concerned about implicit racism are not the ones doing nothing about racial disparities in income, education, housing, voting rights, etc., and the people who reject implicit racism generally do not want racial equity.

Not in my experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

DP. Do you support people's right to express their offense, because that's also free expression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

And we are free to express our opinion that anyone who wants to cosplay as Scarlet O'Hara is probably a racist asshole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

People who believe it’s racist don’t have to attend the parties. Very simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not the same thing at all. There was much in the antebellum South that was not dominated by slavery. And, FWIW, hoop skirts were also worn in the North.


Could you share more on the bolded please? Curious to know what you mean.

While 25% of Southerners owned slaves (and that is too many, of course), 75% did NOT own slaves. Of course, the large plantations depended on slavery, but many other people did not. Slavery was outrageous and troubling, but it was not the ONLY thing in the South.

yes but that 75% was desperately hardscrabble poor and frankly obsessed with getting ahold of one, preferably female fertile, slave b/c unpaid labour was the engine of economic prosperity. those white people worked just as hard albeit without the rape, whipping, forced labor unless you were a woman in which case forced labor, limited freedom of movement, uncompensated labor, rape and probably beatings were features of your life as well as any enslaved person. Hunger, filth, limited resources- all of these where the lot of whites in teh antebellum south who had no enslaved labor, they certainly weren't wearing hoops skirts, too expensive. Romanticization of plantations which were forced labor camps is pretty gross. Also teh "we were so fancy" aspect of southern culture is protesting too much b/c non slaving observers first hand account described how crude and cruel even the most upperclass people were b/c of their treatment of the enslaved population and considered southerners unrefined, they just put on airs to fake the fact that they were snarling and striking another person before taking sip of said mint julep. if you've ever traveled in a south asian fuadal area you'll recognize what i am describing. People who grew up in a wealthy home with abusive parents will also recognize it, the breathtaking switch between a honeyed voice and barking verbal abuse, its not refined. In fact, its a feature of southern culture depicted in films where the mother will yank her child and growl at it and then lookup with a sweet smile and speak with honeyed drawl. Its very disturbing to observe and speaking to anyone in bark, striking them or using swear words b/c they are "below' you is déclassé, its also an observable part of southern lady code. New England wasps dont do it for all of their own faults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

People who believe it’s racist don’t have to attend the parties. Very simple.

If there was an activity that was completely nonessential, that I did just for fun, and multiple people explained to me why the activity is offensive and even considered racist, and that it’s demeaning to many people who are descended of slaves, and that it belittles their ancestors’ brutal oppression, I’d be very apologetic and immediately cease participation in that activity. I’m hard pressed to come up with a decent explanation for why anyone would dig in their heals and keep defending these parties. They just come off as people thinking they’ve found a more genteel way of expressing their love of the Confederacy than adorning a pickup truck with a Confederate flag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Gone with the wind is awesome. There’s a reason it’s a classic. So there’s slaves in it, there were slaves then. Would you prefer a civil war film that has robots instead of slaves? Or squirrels?

It's not just the fact that it depicts slaves. It's that it depicts them as happy fools, happy to serve the white man. It GLORIFIES it. Hattie McDaniels character is literally named Mammy, and they didn't even want to let her in the hotel to accept her Oscar for the role. But yeah...it's awesome.