Detracking and equity threatens all advanced academic programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All kids are entitled to FAPE (not just SpED kids), and Virginia law requires schools to offer some sort of "gifted" education program. Grade skipping introduces a whole new set of problems. I already have a kid who is youngest in their grade and whose IQ doesn't match their emotional maturity, so skipping a grade is going to compound problems, not make them better. It is a good idea for some kids, but, for most, it's not. To say nothing of ending up with a kid who's ready for college at 16 or 17, which isn't great either.

that program can be satisfied by a once a week half hour pull out

+1. Also, high IQ does not guarantee a child a spot in any VA gifted education program. There are kids with gifted level IQs who were not accepted for AAP or even pull outs, and likewise, there are kids with 110-115 IQs in AAP. FCPS is allowed to label any kid as "gifted" or "not gifted" in their opaque selection process without any specific criteria or consistency to the process. A kid with a 145 IQ who is not deemed as "gifted" by the AAP selection committee is not legally entitled to any gifted services at all.

All of this is true and is one of the BEST examples of a breakdown of this system in FCPS when comparing its intent to its practical application. The criteria of the "Gifted Behavior Rating Scale" that teachers are required to fill out on each applicant has FAR too much weight and obviously favors students by race (even if subconcious bias) AND favors students who are compliant in a gen-ed classroom. We had a neighbor who was obviously extremely gifted (near perfect scores on his NNAT and COGAT) whose teacher rated him very low on the scale because he often neglected to do the work, was disorganized, exhibited some undiagnosed ADHD behaviors, was sometimes "acting out" in class. It is shocking to me that this child was denied access to the AAP track simply because he wasn't a model student in the gen-ed classroom. To me, he should be the first in line for this access, because his behaviors compared to his scores demonstrate that the gen-ed environment is not "reaching" him to unlock his full potential as a scholar. High rating as a teacher-pleaser should not be a criteria.

It's not. The kids with no Motivation to Succeed also are in AAP because that's where they're supposed to be. You don't actually know the neighbor kid's scores or why he was not admitted. You just know what the neighbor complained about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I previously posted how Algebra was being removed as an option for 6th graders in LCPS.

Looking at the state website explaining curriculum changes, there is a mention of detracking.
The idea is to not separate kids too much and saying that having kids of different ability level in the same class is beneficial to all.
There is also mention of equity in the curriculum.

It appears there is a push in Virginia DOE to remove higher level classes to reduce the achievement gap, particularly if there is a
racial disparity between who is taking the classes.

Fairfax has also adopted critical race theory and a push for equity, so AAP there is likely going to be reduced.

Has anyone seen detracking mentioned at meetings of a school board or other committees?

OP, your racism is showing.

Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is way too much focus on AAP classes in FCPS and it is creating a new form of segregation. If your kid is so smart and isn't challenged in their class then look into them skipping a grade.

All kids are entitled to FAPE (not just SpED kids), and Virginia law requires schools to offer some sort of "gifted" education program. Grade skipping introduces a whole new set of problems. I already have a kid who is youngest in their grade and whose IQ doesn't match their emotional maturity, so skipping a grade is going to compound problems, not make them better. It is a good idea for some kids, but, for most, it's not. To say nothing of ending up with a kid who's ready for college at 16 or 17, which isn't great either.

This isn’t an argument for aap at all. Aap is not a gifted program. It’s not even that advanced. Aap kids are barely getting any real math acceleration in elementary school.

No. The reason aap is so loved by parents who can get their kids into the program is that it feels exclusive. It is very similar to a mediocre private school. It is just a way to get your kid into a better class.

So it’s an extremely flawed public education program that is completely unnecessary. Many gifted programs like this across the country at least serve to keep high performing students in failing districts and helps with diversity in segregated areas. Aap doesn’t do that.

yes. that is the point.

Agree. And even many of the parents who go through the motions of parent-referrals see this. Especially if they have a LOCAL Level IV program because it is in your face all the time. But the flaw is in the process. What parent who sees that this is the case is going to "take a stand" against the process and refuse to apply, to the detriment of their own kid. Most will not. So long as there is the opportunity to get your child into the "better class" there will be parents who go ahead and try to make it happen. And by "better class" I mean that the AAP class is generally an environment that often (not always) has fewer student-behavioral issues, where the teacher is not having to navigate a wide array of abilities as she is in the gen-ed class, and where the students are generally motivated to study and/or try to do well in school, either because they are interested in achievement or because their parents reinforce and support this at home.
Some gen ed classes still have students who exhibit those characteristics as well, of course. But they represent a smaller population among the gen ed classes. And once a parent realizes that and also sees that there is this "parent referral" mechanism to push for their child to be in the AAP class, most will do what it takes to pursue that whether or not they think their child is truly gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I previously posted how Algebra was being removed as an option for 6th graders in LCPS.

Looking at the state website explaining curriculum changes, there is a mention of detracking.
The idea is to not separate kids too much and saying that having kids of different ability level in the same class is beneficial to all.
There is also mention of equity in the curriculum.

It appears there is a push in Virginia DOE to remove higher level classes to reduce the achievement gap, particularly if there is a
racial disparity between who is taking the classes.

Fairfax has also adopted critical race theory and a push for equity, so AAP there is likely going to be reduced.

Has anyone seen detracking mentioned at meetings of a school board or other committees?

OP, your racism is showing.

Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

Not likely. It's proved to be a HIGHLY effective method for shutting down discussion points that is in opposition to one's arguments. I don't think that tactic will be cast aside anytime soon. Well, at least until no one is left to accuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All kids are entitled to FAPE (not just SpED kids), and Virginia law requires schools to offer some sort of "gifted" education program. Grade skipping introduces a whole new set of problems. I already have a kid who is youngest in their grade and whose IQ doesn't match their emotional maturity, so skipping a grade is going to compound problems, not make them better. It is a good idea for some kids, but, for most, it's not. To say nothing of ending up with a kid who's ready for college at 16 or 17, which isn't great either.

that program can be satisfied by a once a week half hour pull out

+1. Also, high IQ does not guarantee a child a spot in any VA gifted education program. There are kids with gifted level IQs who were not accepted for AAP or even pull outs, and likewise, there are kids with 110-115 IQs in AAP. FCPS is allowed to label any kid as "gifted" or "not gifted" in their opaque selection process without any specific criteria or consistency to the process. A kid with a 145 IQ who is not deemed as "gifted" by the AAP selection committee is not legally entitled to any gifted services at all.

All of this is true and is one of the BEST examples of a breakdown of this system in FCPS when comparing its intent to its practical application. The criteria of the "Gifted Behavior Rating Scale" that teachers are required to fill out on each applicant has FAR too much weight and obviously favors students by race (even if subconcious bias) AND favors students who are compliant in a gen-ed classroom. We had a neighbor who was obviously extremely gifted (near perfect scores on his NNAT and COGAT) whose teacher rated him very low on the scale because he often neglected to do the work, was disorganized, exhibited some undiagnosed ADHD behaviors, was sometimes "acting out" in class. It is shocking to me that this child was denied access to the AAP track simply because he wasn't a model student in the gen-ed classroom. To me, he should be the first in line for this access, because his behaviors compared to his scores demonstrate that the gen-ed environment is not "reaching" him to unlock his full potential as a scholar. High rating as a teacher-pleaser should not be a criteria.

It's not. The kids with no Motivation to Succeed also are in AAP because that's where they're supposed to be. You don't actually know the neighbor kid's scores or why he was not admitted. You just know what the neighbor complained about.

Saw the scores myself actually.
And the kid is a handful. No doubt in my mind about that.
You're right. I have no idea if that is why he wasn't admitted. But the mom showed me the GBRS after she requested a copy of his packet from the school and it was 100% a railroad job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is way too much focus on AAP classes in FCPS and it is creating a new form of segregation. If your kid is so smart and isn't challenged in their class then look into them skipping a grade.

All kids are entitled to FAPE (not just SpED kids), and Virginia law requires schools to offer some sort of "gifted" education program. Grade skipping introduces a whole new set of problems. I already have a kid who is youngest in their grade and whose IQ doesn't match their emotional maturity, so skipping a grade is going to compound problems, not make them better. It is a good idea for some kids, but, for most, it's not. To say nothing of ending up with a kid who's ready for college at 16 or 17, which isn't great either.

This isn’t an argument for aap at all. Aap is not a gifted program. It’s not even that advanced. Aap kids are barely getting any real math acceleration in elementary school.

No. The reason aap is so loved by parents who can get their kids into the program is that it feels exclusive. It is very similar to a mediocre private school. It is just a way to get your kid into a better class.

So it’s an extremely flawed public education program that is completely unnecessary. Many gifted programs like this across the country at least serve to keep high performing students in failing districts and helps with diversity in segregated areas. Aap doesn’t do that.

Absolutely true. And the fact that they are identifying these gifted kids in second grade and then glossing over the fact that most of them are no better than any other student by high school should have led to the abandonment of this silly money waster years ago. In our ES right now we have gen ed and level 3 AAP in virtual classes with 40 students, and the classes are terrible. Meanwhile the AP coordinator is teaching level 4 math 6 kids in a small group class every day, claiming they "need" the extra advanced level. But meanwhile we've got a hundred other kids who aren't even getting their basic needs met. This program is utterly ridiculous.

This is the best most sound argument that I have seen on one of these boards about AAP. The data itself shows that the system is not capturing OR nurturing any advancement. The "advantage" is in the perceived prestige, obviously. But the results in comparing AAP to non-AAP kids when they get to high school has demonstrated that there is no justifiable difference in performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I previously posted how Algebra was being removed as an option for 6th graders in LCPS.

Looking at the state website explaining curriculum changes, there is a mention of detracking.
The idea is to not separate kids too much and saying that having kids of different ability level in the same class is beneficial to all.
There is also mention of equity in the curriculum.

It appears there is a push in Virginia DOE to remove higher level classes to reduce the achievement gap, particularly if there is a
racial disparity between who is taking the classes.

Fairfax has also adopted critical race theory and a push for equity, so AAP there is likely going to be reduced.

Has anyone seen detracking mentioned at meetings of a school board or other committees?

OP, your racism is showing.

Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

Not likely. It's proved to be a HIGHLY effective method for shutting down discussion points that is in opposition to one's arguments. I don't think that tactic will be cast aside anytime soon. Well, at least until no one is left to accuse.

Obviously you are right, but it’s just maddening to read these comments, and to see schools respond to this line of thinking. It’s so destructive. The best thing schools can do is provide knowledge based curriculums and opportunities. To reduce opportunities? Wow. Talk about stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

Not likely. It's proved to be a HIGHLY effective method for shutting down discussion points that is in opposition to one's arguments. I don't think that tactic will be cast aside anytime soon. Well, at least until no one is left to accuse.

Obviously you are right, but it’s just maddening to read these comments, and to see schools respond to this line of thinking. It’s so destructive. The best thing schools can do is provide knowledge based curriculums and opportunities. To reduce opportunities? Wow. Talk about stupid.

Meanwhile the same LCPS has decided to declare Dr Seuss racist. The Read Across America is on Geisel's birthday, and they have are asking teachers to ignore this aspect.

[Anonymous]

Boston has openly declared race to be a factor in removing their advanced classes.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

Not likely. It's proved to be a HIGHLY effective method for shutting down discussion points that is in opposition to one's arguments. I don't think that tactic will be cast aside anytime soon. Well, at least until no one is left to accuse.

Obviously you are right, but it’s just maddening to read these comments, and to see schools respond to this line of thinking. It’s so destructive. The best thing schools can do is provide knowledge based curriculums and opportunities. To reduce opportunities? Wow. Talk about stupid.

Meanwhile the same LCPS has decided to declare Dr Seuss racist. The Read Across America is on Geisel's birthday, and they have are asking teachers to ignore this aspect.

Sigh. It’s so disappointing to see educators get hung up on stuff that DOES NOT MATTER while ignoring all the important stuff!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

This. The solution to the achievement gap is to try to bring up the bottom. It is ludicrous to drag down the top. Additionally, any attempts to drag down the top actually increase the achievement gap, since bright URMs and/or less privileged kids are being denied the opportunity for the higher level classes, while more privileged kids are still getting advanced classes through outside tutoring or private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Can we stop accusing everyone of being racist? 🙄 OP had a good question. It deserves discussion. I personally think it’s bizarre to reduce upper-level academic offerings because not enough black students are enrolled in them. If there aren’t enough black students enrolled in them, then shouldn’t we look at our young black preschoolers and kindergartners and elementary students and make sure these kids are playing, building, reading, and being exposed to high quality literature and vocabulary and getting help with math? Why in the world would we not fix early elementary education? Or provide extra tutoring? THAT is the fix. Not reducing academic offerings in upper elementary or middle/high school.

Not likely. It's proved to be a HIGHLY effective method for shutting down discussion points that is in opposition to one's arguments. I don't think that tactic will be cast aside anytime soon. Well, at least until no one is left to accuse.

Obviously you are right, but it’s just maddening to read these comments, and to see schools respond to this line of thinking. It’s so destructive. The best thing schools can do is provide knowledge based curriculums and opportunities. To reduce opportunities? Wow. Talk about stupid.

Meanwhile the same LCPS has decided to declare Dr Seuss racist. The Read Across America is on Geisel's birthday, and they have are asking teachers to ignore this aspect.

This issue has been around for a while though.
He had some very racist cartoon drawings back in the 20s and 30s, and I think there are definitely other ways to celebrate reading in our schools.
I discreetly brought this up to a pair of elementary administrators (with helpful suggestions of how we could celebrate and promote reading in other ways) a few years ago, but was quickly dismissed. (I am white and the two administrators I emailed about this are Black women.) One actually followed up with me in person and shared that the two of them laughed it off and stated to me that it should not be a problem to me since it wasn't a problem for the two of them. I had a pretty good relationship with both of these women, but I was shocked into silence by her comment at the time, and I dropped it. The whole ordeal made me feel very uncomfortable for what I thought was a well-intentioned effort at promoting anti-racism. But, maybe I was ahead of my time on that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Saw the scores myself actually.
And the kid is a handful. No doubt in my mind about that.
You're right. I have no idea if that is why he wasn't admitted. But the mom showed me the GBRS after she requested a copy of his packet from the school and it was 100% a railroad job.

The real problem is that FCPS can't decide whether they're running a program for gifted kids, a program for advanced kids, or a program for hardworking kids. All three have different needs, and by lumping them all together in the same pot, they're not really serving anyone's needs. Strictly speaking, the gifted kids who are underachievers and/or have behavior problems are exactly the kids who need gifted programming the most, but AAP can't fill that role for those kids.

Currently, the kids who are the "best fit" for AAP are the ones who are model students, motivated, organized, somewhat advanced - but not too advanced, and bright - but not gifted. It's a worse fit for kids who are highly gifted, unmotivated, have behavior problems, aren't above grade level, and/or are too advanced. It doesn't operate like a true gifted program. It's a program that's mildly accelerated in math and language arts, and that requires kids to be motivated and organized enough to handle a lot of independent work.

The GBRS isn't actually a gifted behaviors scale. It's a scale that assesses how good of a fit your child would be for AAP as it is currently administered. PP, your neighbor's kid sounds like a great fit for a true gifted program, but a bad fit for AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is way too much focus on AAP classes in FCPS and it is creating a new form of segregation. If your kid is so smart and isn't challenged in their class then look into them skipping a grade.

All kids are entitled to FAPE (not just SpED kids), and Virginia law requires schools to offer some sort of "gifted" education program. Grade skipping introduces a whole new set of problems. I already have a kid who is youngest in their grade and whose IQ doesn't match their emotional maturity, so skipping a grade is going to compound problems, not make them better. It is a good idea for some kids, but, for most, it's not. To say nothing of ending up with a kid who's ready for college at 16 or 17, which isn't great either.

This isn’t an argument for aap at all. Aap is not a gifted program. It’s not even that advanced. Aap kids are barely getting any real math acceleration in elementary school.

No. The reason aap is so loved by parents who can get their kids into the program is that it feels exclusive. It is very similar to a mediocre private school. It is just a way to get your kid into a better class.

So it’s an extremely flawed public education program that is completely unnecessary. Many gifted programs like this across the country at least serve to keep high performing students in failing districts and helps with diversity in segregated areas. Aap doesn’t do that.

Absolutely true. And the fact that they are identifying these gifted kids in second grade and then glossing over the fact that most of them are no better than any other student by high school should have led to the abandonment of this silly money waster years ago. In our ES right now we have gen ed and level 3 AAP in virtual classes with 40 students, and the classes are terrible. Meanwhile the AP coordinator is teaching level 4 math 6 kids in a small group class every day, claiming they "need" the extra advanced level. But meanwhile we've got a hundred other kids who aren't even getting their basic needs met. This program is utterly ridiculous.

This is the best most sound argument that I have seen on one of these boards about AAP. The data itself shows that the system is not capturing OR nurturing any advancement. The "advantage" is in the perceived prestige, obviously. But the results in comparing AAP to non-AAP kids when they get to high school has demonstrated that there is no justifiable difference in performance.

I'm curious if we were to go to dokey a test based system with a cutoff in the 140s if there would be a measurable difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

This may be true. What is also true is that it's the parents of these kids that do most of the volunteer work at school and provide the support teachers need to keep the school at a higher level of performance. If AAP is gone, so will a lot of those volunteers. Race to the bottom!

Why would they not want to volunteer if there is no AAP? Seems like they would want to volunteer more to keep the services/standards high.