Detracking and equity threatens all advanced academic programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

This may be true. What is also true is that it's the parents of these kids that do most of the volunteer work at school and provide the support teachers need to keep the school at a higher level of performance. If AAP is gone, so will a lot of those volunteers. Race to the bottom!

This comment says so much, just not what you think it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

There's some evidence that having higher performers in a class with lower performers helps the lower performers, but is it true the other way around?

Shouldn't we want all kids to be challenged? If you have a kid who is above performing, wouldn't you want your kid to get small group time with their teacher?

Is "benign neglect", good for higher performers? It might force them to become self-learners, which is a good skill, but how much does this also lead to classroom disruption?

If we are in a global competition with other nations, wouldn't we want to nurture higher performers as well?

The top 20% kids who are in aap will have plenty of other high performers in their class in a school district with no aap. Cmon. Think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

There's some evidence that having higher performers in a class with lower performers helps the lower performers, but is it true the other way around?

Shouldn't we want all kids to be challenged? If you have a kid who is above performing, wouldn't you want your kid to get small group time with their teacher?

Is "benign neglect", good for higher performers? It might force them to become self-learners, which is a good skill, but how much does this also lead to classroom disruption?

If we are in a global competition with other nations, wouldn't we want to nurture higher performers as well?

The top 20% kids who are in aap will have plenty of other high performers in their class in a school district with no aap. Cmon. Think.

Will they? What if you're in a high FARMS school?

Why shouldn't we demand an outstand education that meets each kids needs and abilities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The top 20% kids who are in aap will have plenty of other high performers in their class in a school district with no aap. Cmon. Think.

In theory, I agree with you. In practice, those top 20% will be ignored in a regular classroom. Being among 5 other high performers in your 28-30 person classroom would be fine if your group got 20% of the teacher's time. Instead, the high performers will see the teacher for maybe 30-60 minutes per MONTH out of the 2 hours of language arts block the teacher has every day. Likewise, for group projects, the teacher will never group the high performers together so they can really delve deeper into their projects. Instead, each one will be shackled to low performers or kids who don't care about school, and they'll all have to try to do the entire project while some other kid is sabotaging the slides.

AAP is honestly pretty ludicrous, but the FCPS gen ed model is terrible, too. Providing any semblance of a challenge for bright gen ed kids is clearly not a priority for FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are people so against putting kids of similar abilities together?

When I was a kid, there was an advanced class, regular class and a remedial class. I kind of think this was worse. The kids in the low class always knew they were in the dumb class. At least if kids are not in AAP, they can all be in the normal class.

I’ve heard kids in gen ed at centers kind of feel that way. Idk we are not at a center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

This! +1000000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I previously posted how Algebra was being removed as an option for 6th graders in LCPS.

Looking at the state website explaining curriculum changes, there is a mention of detracking.
The idea is to not separate kids too much and saying that having kids of different ability level in the same class is beneficial to all.
There is also mention of equity in the curriculum.

It appears there is a push in Virginia DOE to remove higher level classes to reduce the achievement gap, particularly if there is a
racial disparity between who is taking the classes.

Fairfax has also adopted critical race theory and a push for equity, so AAP there is likely going to be reduced.

Has anyone seen detracking mentioned at meetings of a school board or other committees?

Sounds good to me! I hope FCPS takes note.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

This may be true. What is also true is that it's the parents of these kids that do most of the volunteer work at school and provide the support teachers need to keep the school at a higher level of performance. If AAP is gone, so will a lot of those volunteers. Race to the bottom!

It's the opposite where I am - though I am sure it varies. Our base school has a ton of volunteers. The AAP center is kids from all over and it's like pulling teeth for volunteers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not exactly. Critical Race Theory is a framework that presumes (our) society is built upon white supremacy, and as a result, institutions and systems benefit those who are white and (usually unintentionally) put racial minorities at a disadvantage, due to systemic inequities and structures that support the privileged and continue to perpetually disadvantage those who are not. Like...a self-powered perpetual motion machine that increasingly makes things better for rich white people and worse for poor black and brown people, and it won't stop unless people consciously work to change it.

If you don't understand that, ok. Hopefully you do now.
But if you have a problem with that....I'd say you are the problem.

We can work to fix these issues and still provide for different needs (enrich, supplement, enhance, modify, etc...). We just can't keep doing it the same way if we care about equity. But not everyone actually cares about equity I realize, so of course we'll see people complaining.

I'm in both camps.. Agree with the basic premise of the theory but don't agree that the solution is watering down everything and wait for the disadvantaged to catch up. The theory also breaks down when it comes to certain non-white groups (e.g. Asians and African immigrants whether or not they are rich/educated).

Why not increase county/state taxes and use that to fund AAP or equivalent at all schools so everyone has the opportunity to get the same level of education? I'd gladly pay as I'm sure most people would. It's far cheaper than the alternative (sending their kids to private schools)..

NP here, and no, it doesn't break down just because other non-whites have different experiences than descendants of slaves. In fact, holding up the success of Asian-Americans as a way to bludgeon Black people is another way to reinforce the racism built into our system. And, as an Asian-American, I want no part of it. There is white supremacy baked into the fabric of the US society. I've experienced that discrimination. And I've seen my success used to discriminate against Black people. And I'm tired of it. The only people who seem to have a choice about believing in white supremacy seem to be white people.

[Anonymous]

I see both sides on this. The system is and has for a long time been stacked against certain minority groups. The achievement gap is a huge problem. I hope most people can at least acknowledge this. I have a hard time supporting any policies that intend to close the achievement gap by bringing down the top rather than raising the bottom. Adding free, full day pre-K and preschool is great. Strengthening the Young Scholars program is great. I'm a fan of offering free afterschool tutoring, enrichment programs, private music lessons, and summer programs. I'd love to see non-school policies that raise people out of poverty, as that's a huge contributing factor. Heck, including more URM and FARMs kids in AAP, with an additional mentorship/tutoring program to help them be successful would be great, too.

But, I can't support policies that remove advanced or gifted level programs for kids who are advanced. Nothing is accomplished by holding back the kids who are functioning at a higher level and need more.

[Anonymous]

>The goal isn’t to remove the higher level classes,

Yet this has already happened in Loudoun County with the removal of algebra for 6th graders.

This is a link to the state website that describes their curriculum work.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/mathematics/vmpi/index.shtml

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

This may be true. What is also true is that it's the parents of these kids that do most of the volunteer work at school and provide the support teachers need to keep the school at a higher level of performance. If AAP is gone, so will a lot of those volunteers. Race to the bottom!

Not my experience at our center. There seems to be a higher concentration of stay-at-home moms in gen ed, and they do a lot of the folder stuffing, library reshelving, etc. volunteer work. Parent volunteers putting fliers in folders are not what keeps schools performing at a high level, either. Parental involvement with their kids' educations matters a lot more, and throwing class parties and collecting money for teacher gifts is not what matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is only laughable. You do not need it. Your schools will be fine without the program. Better even. Taking the top 20% of kids who are most prepped in 2nd grade is only creating a pseudo-private school that’s free for those who don’t want to pay. It is not a right you all deserve as public school patrons and it does a disservice to those kids not in the program. I’ve lived in Fairfax and then all around the US and abroad. So I’ve seen a lot of different public education.

There's some evidence that having higher performers in a class with lower performers helps the lower performers, but is it true the other way around?

Shouldn't we want all kids to be challenged? If you have a kid who is above performing, wouldn't you want your kid to get small group time with their teacher?

Is "benign neglect", good for higher performers? It might force them to become self-learners, which is a good skill, but how much does this also lead to classroom disruption?

If we are in a global competition with other nations, wouldn't we want to nurture higher performers as well?

This would be my concern, too. My husband went to a poor, rural school system where the "gifted and talented" program was taking a field trip to see The Nutcracker at Christmas. They did not read a full novel in high school English (only readers and excerpts) until dual-enrollment (no AP classes there) senior year. (I wish I was exaggerating, but I'm not.) He was, without trying, one of the smartest kids in class and is still (at 45) bitter about never being challenged in school and being expected to help teach the low performers since he finished his work correctly and quickly. He had one or two teachers who went out of their way to give him special projects to challenge him, but he had far more who basically ignored him because others needed their help more.

I didn't grow up in FCPS, but my school did have tracked elementary school classes and honors/AP in high school. I saw the same people in most of my classes. My husband and I went to school in the same state at the same time, but I got a far superior education to what he got and was better prepared for college, even he probably has a number of IQ points on me. I'm not married to the AAP system, but I also don't want either my AAP kid or my gen ed kid to be in a place where the teacher is spread so thin across abilities that no one is getting what they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I previously posted how Algebra was being removed as an option for 6th graders in LCPS.

Looking at the state website explaining curriculum changes, there is a mention of detracking.
The idea is to not separate kids too much and saying that having kids of different ability level in the same class is beneficial to all.
There is also mention of equity in the curriculum.

It appears there is a push in Virginia DOE to remove higher level classes to reduce the achievement gap, particularly if there is a
racial disparity between who is taking the classes.

Fairfax has also adopted critical race theory and a push for equity, so AAP there is likely going to be reduced.

Has anyone seen detracking mentioned at meetings of a school board or other committees?

What is critical race theory?

When applied to education, it presumes that teachers are racist and schools are racist institutions, yet paradoxically, teachers and schools systems state that they anti-racist, and equity is stressed in ed schools.

Somebody is lying.

Not exactly. Critical Race Theory is a framework that presumes (our) society is built upon white supremacy, and as a result, institutions and systems benefit those who are white and (usually unintentionally) put racial minorities at a disadvantage, due to systemic inequities and structures that support the privileged and continue to perpetually disadvantage those who are not. Like...a self-powered perpetual motion machine that increasingly makes things better for rich white people and worse for poor black and brown people, and it won't stop unless people consciously work to change it.

If you don't understand that, ok. Hopefully you do now.
But if you have a problem with that....I'd say you are the problem.

We can work to fix these issues and still provide for different needs (enrich, supplement, enhance, modify, etc...). We just can't keep doing it the same way if we care about equity. But not everyone actually cares about equity I realize, so of course we'll see people complaining.

Who is preventing black kids from getting into tougher classes? The correct answer is: no one. My kids are in advanced classes and guess what!?! There are black kids in their classes. Your argument is old and tired.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see both sides on this. The system is and has for a long time been stacked against certain minority groups. The achievement gap is a huge problem. I hope most people can at least acknowledge this. I have a hard time supporting any policies that intend to close the achievement gap by bringing down the top rather than raising the bottom. Adding free, full day pre-K and preschool is great. Strengthening the Young Scholars program is great. I'm a fan of offering free afterschool tutoring, enrichment programs, private music lessons, and summer programs. I'd love to see non-school policies that raise people out of poverty, as that's a huge contributing factor. Heck, including more URM and FARMs kids in AAP, with an additional mentorship/tutoring program to help them be successful would be great, too.

But, I can't support policies that remove advanced or gifted level programs for kids who are advanced. Nothing is accomplished by holding back the kids who are functioning at a higher level and need more.

+ 1. To add to this, I'm willing to pay more in taxes to pay for all this but am certainly not willing to do so if it's going to cost my children. If you force me to, I'd rather vote for someone who talks school vouchers, and use that to subsidize my kids' education at Private school.