FCPS plans to "reform" TJ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate the long quotes so I am not quoting.

Thanks to the Teacher PP. I appreciate your insight. And the parent who responded as well. Those are different insights then we normally see in this conversation and I appreciate them.

In the end, TJ is a program that requires a different type os student and mindset then most schools. While you have to be very smart to attend TJ and complete the course work you also have to be very committed to a more intense program.

I'm the teacher who posted. I think it's such an interesting situation. You have a lot of people deeply invested in how the system works because they have put a lot of time, resources, energy into working the system.

What's also interesting is that in other parts of the county, TJ isn't viewed favorably. In my first school, I really think parents and students both wanted very little to do with TJ. It wasn't that they couldn't hack it (honestly the kids from school 1 and school 3 are fairly interchangeable when you take away the extras the kids in school 3 take on. I do wonder what would happen if TJ spots were divided equally among the middle schools. I think the big thing is that a lot of the insanity would come to an end. I hear from kids I taught and their parents and the uniform theme is that the expectations at TJ are increasingly unreasonable. I get a lot of complaints about math instruction and sometimes a few parents will get mad at me that my class didn't prepare their kids for the leap TJ required. The issue is that I really have no connection to the TJ math sequence. I don't know much about how it's structured. I teach Alg. and Geo. and the standards I use are basically what the county and state require. Our classes are not structured to be a bridge to TJ even though this school places a fairly large number of kids there.

From what I can tell, I think the big problem some kids run into at TJ is that the middle school math sequence -- even accelerated -- does not map to the TJ math sequence. What I've seen kids do is basically supplement outside and prepare during 8th grade and even 7th. I wonder if this is a good use of time, but I guess it is if making through TJ with good grades is important.

Now, I also know of kids who thrive. So, it's not an all or nothing. I think that's why it's so hard to grapple with issues at TJ. Yes, it's a great program. But could it be better? And what is better? More equity? More diversity? Better transition from middle school math to TJ math (a common complaint). Something else?

I think if people are serious about improving TJ, these are the types of questions that need to be answered. We don't need to do the endless ... well these are the smartest, hard working kids so we know it's a good program. We should be thinking about how we can serve these bright STEM students.

On the math sequence point, TJ agreed with you. They added a semester after research states and before math 3– math 2.5. It’s voluntary, but they give a diagnostic, and they strongly recommend it if they find gaps. It reinforces the math basis and provides a bridge to the TJ Math sequence. My kid should have done it and didn’t. Kids who did had a much easier transition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let TJ be TJ! Just because your kid didn’t get in or didn’t like it, or you heard some rumors or lies, doesn’t mean it has to be tailored to everyone’s needs and wants. We should support those self motivated, independent and highly intelligent kids as well as those who have learning difficulties. Please don’t turn it into a mediocre school like those watered down AAP! My kid and a bunch of kids I know were bored to death at AAP and now they are thriving at TJ!

TJ was never intended to be the next level of AAP. It is supposedly for kids passionate about science.

And if you look at college placements, you will see it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a TJ science day thing a few months ago with my kids. Most of the female students were friendly, helpful, encouraging, etc. Almost every single male TJ kid I encountered was a pompous jerk. And there were definitely moments where I witnessed pretty sexist behavior from the boys. It really turned me off to the school. I walked away not wanting my daughter or son to go there or even hang out with kids like those male students. I’m sure not all the kids who go there are like this but there were enough that day to turn me off to the school.

That has not been our experience. If you saw sexism, you should have spoken to the faculty sponsor. My son hangs out with the needy white band kids. And it’s a really nice group. Kind. Heart in the right place. Would help anyone who needed it is a heartbeat. But quiet. Talking to them is like pulling teeth. So, not friendly and bubbly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have some time at hand so i’ll share something I heard from my TJ DC. Recently a teacher asked why they came to TJ. Of a class of about 30 kids only two said the only reason they were at TJ was their parents made them. The rest of the class listed other reasons. Presumably some might not be 100 percent honest I still find this interesting and contrary to many believed, that going to TJ is solely plotted and pushed by parents.

I think you are a bit literal. Presumably even kids who have been pushed and prodded understand that it is better to suggest they exercise some agency.

No. Pp is right. I’m sure it’s more than 2. And some kids are forced to apply. But many, many kids choose Taj and do no prepping. My kid and all his friends fall into this group. My other kid didn’t apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS is handicapping qualifying magnet scores? What? How is that legal?

SES is not a protected class, why would it be illegal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pat Hynes
@VotePatHynes
·
Mar 20
Does sound like TJ. DiBlasio’s proposed solution for NY is to admit the top students from every middle school - geographic equality as a stand-in for equity. Might work. Look at SF’s experience with Lowell HS - geography-plus. FCPS will begin TJ reform plan this year.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone been following this?

No, but this is a terrible idea. It came up a few years ago and a bunch of parents said outright that they'll simply rent in less-desirable school middle school boundaries to increase their kids' chances if FCPS goes this route. FCPS is loathe to admit it, but they're well-aware that the county has a vested interest in not losing the TJ and AAP parents. I think they'll talk a big game but never follow through.

Sounds great!

I'm all for this plan!

+1 This would be a great incentive to get people to integrate schools by SES. Some schools in FCPS are overs 50 percent FARMS and some are 5 percent. This would help to mitigate that disparity, and would actually improve FCPS overall performance. It won't do anything for the diversity of TJ, though. I really think not having any school above 35 percent FARMS is a way better goal than integrating TJ. If dangling the carrot of an easier way into TJ would result in fixing the FARMS disparity, I don't care if TJ doesn't increase the number of URMs admitted. A high performing URM isn't disadvantaged by shining at the base HS over being one of a sea of high performing kids at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pat Hynes
@VotePatHynes
·
Mar 20
Does sound like TJ. DiBlasio’s proposed solution for NY is to admit the top students from every middle school - geographic equality as a stand-in for equity. Might work. Look at SF’s experience with Lowell HS - geography-plus. FCPS will begin TJ reform plan this year.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone been following this?

No, but this is a terrible idea. It came up a few years ago and a bunch of parents said outright that they'll simply rent in less-desirable school middle school boundaries to increase their kids' chances if FCPS goes this route. FCPS is loathe to admit it, but they're well-aware that the county has a vested interest in not losing the TJ and AAP parents. I think they'll talk a big game but never follow through.

Sounds great!

I'm all for this plan!

+1 This would be a great incentive to get people to integrate schools by SES. Some schools in FCPS are overs 50 percent FARMS and some are 5 percent. This would help to mitigate that disparity, and would actually improve FCPS overall performance. It won't do anything for the diversity of TJ, though. I really think not having any school above 35 percent FARMS is a way better goal than integrating TJ. If dangling the carrot of an easier way into TJ would result in fixing the FARMS disparity, I don't care if TJ doesn't increase the number of URMs admitted. A high performing URM isn't disadvantaged by shining at the base HS over being one of a sea of high performing kids at TJ.

People aren’t going to send their kids through a week AAP Center for ES. They will “move” as late as allowed in 8th grade. Then move back. So some MSs would be more integrated for part of 8th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pat Hynes
@VotePatHynes
·
Mar 20
Does sound like TJ. DiBlasio’s proposed solution for NY is to admit the top students from every middle school - geographic equality as a stand-in for equity. Might work. Look at SF’s experience with Lowell HS - geography-plus. FCPS will begin TJ reform plan this year.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone been following this?

No, but this is a terrible idea. It came up a few years ago and a bunch of parents said outright that they'll simply rent in less-desirable school middle school boundaries to increase their kids' chances if FCPS goes this route. FCPS is loathe to admit it, but they're well-aware that the county has a vested interest in not losing the TJ and AAP parents. I think they'll talk a big game but never follow through.

Sounds great!

I'm all for this plan!

+1 This would be a great incentive to get people to integrate schools by SES. Some schools in FCPS are overs 50 percent FARMS and some are 5 percent. This would help to mitigate that disparity, and would actually improve FCPS overall performance. It won't do anything for the diversity of TJ, though. I really think not having any school above 35 percent FARMS is a way better goal than integrating TJ. If dangling the carrot of an easier way into TJ would result in fixing the FARMS disparity, I don't care if TJ doesn't increase the number of URMs admitted. A high performing URM isn't disadvantaged by shining at the base HS over being one of a sea of high performing kids at TJ.

The high school I went to had a number of parachute kids. They were kids who did not pass the exams for elite high schools in Japan and South Korea. Their parents rented an apartment in our town, moved their kid, and then moved back to Japan or South Korea, leaving their child alone in the apartment. I can fully see parents renting an apartment in the area of a high FARMs school and calling that home so they can enroll the child in that MS. Then they would simply drive the kid to the school each day. There are already parents who are out of bounds for various language and magnet schools were parents drive their kids, so renting an apartment to gain access to a school that would make it easier to attend TJ is something totally feasible.

I actually wonder about some of the out of bounds folks in JI at Fox Mill. The school feeds into Carson and a JI Fox Mill student has access to Carson for MS, as long as they take JI. You can take Advanced Math at Fox Mill, which is what most people want for their kids to get into Algebra in 7th grade. Parents can get their kid into a school that feeds into Carson, qualify for Advanced Math, maybe even AAP and wait until MS to accept it, and then go to one of the larger feeder MS.

I fully believe that a good number of people choose the JI program because it is interesting, challenging, and different. I can also see people choosing it because it helps them avoid middle schools and high schools that don't have Japanese. Herndon Middle School and High School does not have Japanese.

So why is it out of the realm of possibility that people would rent and apartment, call it home, and then live some place else and drive their kid to school each day so their kid can be in the top 10% of the class and get into TJ.

And if you think those kids are going to improve anything at that MS you are crazy. The kids will be in AAP classes and their parents will enroll them in enrichment activities outside of the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pat Hynes
@VotePatHynes
·
Mar 20
Does sound like TJ. DiBlasio’s proposed solution for NY is to admit the top students from every middle school - geographic equality as a stand-in for equity. Might work. Look at SF’s experience with Lowell HS - geography-plus. FCPS will begin TJ reform plan this year.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone been following this?

No, but this is a terrible idea. It came up a few years ago and a bunch of parents said outright that they'll simply rent in less-desirable school middle school boundaries to increase their kids' chances if FCPS goes this route. FCPS is loathe to admit it, but they're well-aware that the county has a vested interest in not losing the TJ and AAP parents. I think they'll talk a big game but never follow through.

Sounds great!

I'm all for this plan!

+1 This would be a great incentive to get people to integrate schools by SES. Some schools in FCPS are overs 50 percent FARMS and some are 5 percent. This would help to mitigate that disparity, and would actually improve FCPS overall performance. It won't do anything for the diversity of TJ, though. I really think not having any school above 35 percent FARMS is a way better goal than integrating TJ. If dangling the carrot of an easier way into TJ would result in fixing the FARMS disparity, I don't care if TJ doesn't increase the number of URMs admitted. A high performing URM isn't disadvantaged by shining at the base HS over being one of a sea of high performing kids at TJ.

The high school I went to had a number of parachute kids. They were kids who did not pass the exams for elite high schools in Japan and South Korea. Their parents rented an apartment in our town, moved their kid, and then moved back to Japan or South Korea, leaving their child alone in the apartment. I can fully see parents renting an apartment in the area of a high FARMs school and calling that home so they can enroll the child in that MS. Then they would simply drive the kid to the school each day. There are already parents who are out of bounds for various language and magnet schools were parents drive their kids, so renting an apartment to gain access to a school that would make it easier to attend TJ is something totally feasible.

I actually wonder about some of the out of bounds folks in JI at Fox Mill. The school feeds into Carson and a JI Fox Mill student has access to Carson for MS, as long as they take JI. You can take Advanced Math at Fox Mill, which is what most people want for their kids to get into Algebra in 7th grade. Parents can get their kid into a school that feeds into Carson, qualify for Advanced Math, maybe even AAP and wait until MS to accept it, and then go to one of the larger feeder MS.

I fully believe that a good number of people choose the JI program because it is interesting, challenging, and different. I can also see people choosing it because it helps them avoid middle schools and high schools that don't have Japanese. Herndon Middle School and High School does not have Japanese.

So why is it out of the realm of possibility that people would rent and apartment, call it home, and then live some place else and drive their kid to school each day so their kid can be in the top 10% of the class and get into TJ.

And if you think those kids are going to improve anything at that MS you are crazy. The kids will be in AAP classes and their parents will enroll them in enrichment activities outside of the school.

I see you’ve got it figured out! Lol

Seriously, there is no problem with the above happening. If it would even happen like you say. Like you said it already happens to some extent. I mean, if you want to do this for your child go ahead. I don’t think it’s best but I also don’t think weekend math classes are best.

The fact that this plan upsets you in particular is probably a mark in its favor. —np

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pat Hynes
@VotePatHynes
·
Mar 20
Does sound like TJ. DiBlasio’s proposed solution for NY is to admit the top students from every middle school - geographic equality as a stand-in for equity. Might work. Look at SF’s experience with Lowell HS - geography-plus. FCPS will begin TJ reform plan this year.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone been following this?

No, but this is a terrible idea. It came up a few years ago and a bunch of parents said outright that they'll simply rent in less-desirable school middle school boundaries to increase their kids' chances if FCPS goes this route. FCPS is loathe to admit it, but they're well-aware that the county has a vested interest in not losing the TJ and AAP parents. I think they'll talk a big game but never follow through.

Sounds great!

I'm all for this plan!

+1 This would be a great incentive to get people to integrate schools by SES. Some schools in FCPS are overs 50 percent FARMS and some are 5 percent. This would help to mitigate that disparity, and would actually improve FCPS overall performance. It won't do anything for the diversity of TJ, though. I really think not having any school above 35 percent FARMS is a way better goal than integrating TJ. If dangling the carrot of an easier way into TJ would result in fixing the FARMS disparity, I don't care if TJ doesn't increase the number of URMs admitted. A high performing URM isn't disadvantaged by shining at the base HS over being one of a sea of high performing kids at TJ.

The high school I went to had a number of parachute kids. They were kids who did not pass the exams for elite high schools in Japan and South Korea. Their parents rented an apartment in our town, moved their kid, and then moved back to Japan or South Korea, leaving their child alone in the apartment. I can fully see parents renting an apartment in the area of a high FARMs school and calling that home so they can enroll the child in that MS. Then they would simply drive the kid to the school each day. There are already parents who are out of bounds for various language and magnet schools were parents drive their kids, so renting an apartment to gain access to a school that would make it easier to attend TJ is something totally feasible.

I actually wonder about some of the out of bounds folks in JI at Fox Mill. The school feeds into Carson and a JI Fox Mill student has access to Carson for MS, as long as they take JI. You can take Advanced Math at Fox Mill, which is what most people want for their kids to get into Algebra in 7th grade. Parents can get their kid into a school that feeds into Carson, qualify for Advanced Math, maybe even AAP and wait until MS to accept it, and then go to one of the larger feeder MS.

I fully believe that a good number of people choose the JI program because it is interesting, challenging, and different. I can also see people choosing it because it helps them avoid middle schools and high schools that don't have Japanese. Herndon Middle School and High School does not have Japanese.

So why is it out of the realm of possibility that people would rent and apartment, call it home, and then live some place else and drive their kid to school each day so their kid can be in the top 10% of the class and get into TJ.

And if you think those kids are going to improve anything at that MS you are crazy. The kids will be in AAP classes and their parents will enroll them in enrichment activities outside of the school.

If these kids do this, then there will be more higher level classes offered, which will benefit the base students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a TJ science day thing a few months ago with my kids. Most of the female students were friendly, helpful, encouraging, etc. Almost every single male TJ kid I encountered was a pompous jerk. And there were definitely moments where I witnessed pretty sexist behavior from the boys. It really turned me off to the school. I walked away not wanting my daughter or son to go there or even hang out with kids like those male students. I’m sure not all the kids who go there are like this but there were enough that day to turn me off to the school.

You must be kidding! Have you seen the behavior of the boys at your base HS?!?! TJ boys are nerds for the most part and quite immature (in my humble opinion) compared to base HS kids. Base HS boys will behave all nice and friendly at a school event like the one you described.. What happens when no one is watching is a different story altogether..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let TJ be TJ! Just because your kid didn’t get in or didn’t like it, or you heard some rumors or lies, doesn’t mean it has to be tailored to everyone’s needs and wants. We should support those self motivated, independent and highly intelligent kids as well as those who have learning difficulties. Please don’t turn it into a mediocre school like those watered down AAP! My kid and a bunch of kids I know were bored to death at AAP and now they are thriving at TJ!

I would if I thought that TJ was serving self motivated kids. I think there are a good number of self motivated kids and I think that a large number of the kids are there because that is what Mom and Dad want for them. They have been attending math tutoring/enrichment programs since pre-K and I don’t buy for a second tht a 4 or 5 year old really wants to go to math class twice a week and do a worksheet or some type of home work 7 days a week.

There are going to be kids who decide that they are interested in STEM late in elementary school or in middle school and they have no way of getting the necessary classes or grades to be considered for TJ. They are smart and developing their interest on their own. Their parents have not forced them to do hours of extra math prep and STEM classes. In the end, that is the main difference.

TJ then is more about parents who plot out their kids course at the age of 4 and not a large number of self motivated, intelligent, STEM loving kids. Is that a good thing? I don’t know if it is a bad thing but I do know that TJ is no longer for the bright kid who figures out at 10 or 11 that they would like to complete a STEM education and I am not certain that is a god thing.

The good news is that plenty of kids get a great education through AP and IB classes. Those kids are just as likely to go on and do some cool things in STEM as a TJ Grad.

You have an exaggerated view of the situation. Not all kids prep as much as you describe and not all prepped kids get in. Far from it. Apart from the main feeder schools, prep is minimal in other places. A lot of kids from these schools get in because their teacher thought they'd be a good fit and wrote letters to that effect and of course the kid did well in the entrance tests. Pretty much all the White kids who get in are like that. My DC is one such (we are Indian) not really interested in weekend classes, robotics, stem coding, etc. Took the TJ test because his friends did and got in.

We know several extreme preppers that did not get in. We also know several kids that almost made it but are thriving at the base High school - taking courses at GMU because base school offerings are limited, doing some cool extra curricular activities because they get home at 3 vs 5:30, etc.

Reality is some level of prep helps everyone, even the best of the best. Think SAT prep.

Also, as many posters pointed out, TJ is a family commitment. Whoever wants to go there should be prepared for that. Otherwise, I think it's a great idea to open up the school to the top 5% from each HS (or a certain number of seats). The rest should be competed out as happens now. Someone also needs to sit with the teacher crowd at TJ and bring them down a notch so the kids have time to go on a date once in a while..

[Anonymous]

I see you’ve got it figured out! Lol

Seriously, there is no problem with the above happening. If it would even happen like you say. Like you said it already happens to some extent. I mean, if you want to do this for your child go ahead. I don’t think it’s best but I also don’t think weekend math classes are best.

The fact that this plan upsets you in particular is probably a mark in its favor. —np

Where in my post did I say this upset me? My child is zoned for Carson at his ES so we don't have to move. We did not choose our house based on the MS or HS, we did choose it based on the ES. We had no clue about TJ when we were buying a house. I would be surprised if my DS wants to attend TJ but we have a bunch of years to go before we might have to worry about making that choice.

I was just laying out how people can game the system if the system is changed to a percentage of seats from each Middle School. If I can do it with about 5 minutes of thought, I suspect that parents who are willing to send their kids to math tutoring before kindergarten and test prep classes in first and second grade will have it figured out.

If these kids do this, then there will be more higher level classes offered, which will benefit the base students.

The kids whose parents "move" to attend a specific MS in order to game the system are going to be kids whose parents made sure that they are in AAP. They will "move" to a MS that has AAP or an AAP Center that they can attend. They will join the existing AAP population. This will not lead to more advanced classes for the kids who are already there. It will increase the number of kids in the existing AAP program and cost the local kids the change to attend TJ because they will have a growth in the number of kids whose parents are gaming the system.

Essentially, a shift to school percentages for TJ will simply spread out the kids who are already moving to the area to attend Carson and other feeder MS. Those kids will attend their new MS AAP program but are not really going to be members of the community. I don't know how that will make things better for the MS except by improving the SOL scores for those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You will pry FCPS’s systemic racism from its cold, dead hand.

So long as white moms roam the county, yes.

Did you fall asleep 30 years ago? It’s test-prep Asians who want to keep TJ as it is with no changes.

Ha ha! The intensity of the TJ program right now (thanks to 30 years on "prep Asians") is so high that most of the soccer/football/basketball kids and their parents would get bent over and run back to base school before the end of the first week. Be careful what you wish for.

yup it's how it is in most asian countries go to school and then go to test prep/hw camp to get into the elite colleges

it's sad we have let that culture permeate which was once an actual STEM magnet to now being populated by people who have been prepping since elementary school

What's sadder is that the TJ teachers are now so punch-drunk on power that they refuse to tone down their curriculum. The new principal was supposedly brought in to bring some level of homework normalcy to the school. Didn't work out. She's now implementing programs that encourage the students not to focus on grades! WTF!.

We have a kid at TJ and there's no way I'm sending my second there. Terrible school/life balance. It's almost like we sent a kid to boarding school except that the kid still lives with us and we do a lot more driving around than we would have otherwise.. and to what end? And yeah, we tried to get him back to base over the course of the past 2-3 years but to no avail...

I think a change along these lines (top 10% of the kids go to TJ) would work but will take a while to pan out.. Either the school will change its approach to teaching and have a more diverse population or the lower SES asian parents will just move to the appropriate school districts to make sure their kids get in..

+1000
TJ is actually a terrible school. Many of the teachers are not good and they just pile on the work. The test prep kids are unused to unreasonable standards and long ago established cheating rings to address the problem. If your DC is not a member of a cheating ring DC will be up every night and every weekend trying to do it on their own. TJ needs reform but it’s so self satisfied that it will never happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have some time at hand so i’ll share something I heard from my TJ DC. Recently a teacher asked why they came to TJ. Of a class of about 30 kids only two said the only reason they were at TJ was their parents made them. The rest of the class listed other reasons. Presumably some might not be 100 percent honest I still find this interesting and contrary to many believed, that going to TJ is solely plotted and pushed by parents.

I think you are a bit literal. Presumably even kids who have been pushed and prodded understand that it is better to suggest they exercise some agency.

And you know that how? Most of them are there because they want to be. I know enough TJ kids to know this. The kids that don't want to be there either sabotge their tests or drop out after Freshman year.

Most people here correlate test prep with TJ admissions. But correlation is not causation. Not every prepped kid gets in. We'd need 20 TJs to accommodate that! The ones that do get in ARE really good and likely would have gotten in with minimal prep - a few months of classes to fill in the gaps between what the TJ test expects vs what their schools covered, exposure to the types of questions on the test, etc.

I think there are several factors keeping the non-asians away
- The rigor of TJ - This scares Parents as well as students
- Lack of awareness
- The commitment/sacrifices that the kid and parents have to make
- Not fitting in. I suspect most locals do not want to go to a place that's mostly Asian.