New study on relative impact of Harvard Admissions Preferences

[Anonymous]

On a related topic, I’d be interested in a discussion of why Asian American parents are often so fixated on Ivy League schools, Harvard in particular. It always seemed to me evidence of their relative unfamiliarity as a group with American colleges. I used to work for Harvard, and while it has terrific resources and faculty, it’s not Heaven. I see parents pushing for Harvard whether or not it offers the program of study the student wants, or the aid, or is located in a convenient place, or is the right size for the student, or whatever. I’m afraid sometimes the name is all that matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On a related topic, I’d be interested in a discussion of why Asian American parents are often so fixated on Ivy League schools, Harvard in particular. It always seemed to me evidence of their relative unfamiliarity as a group with American colleges. I used to work for Harvard, and while it has terrific resources and faculty, it’s not Heaven. I see parents pushing for Harvard whether or not it offers the program of study the student wants, or the aid, or is located in a convenient place, or is the right size for the student, or whatever. I’m afraid sometimes the name is all that matters.

Yeah it’s just Asian American parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On a related topic, I’d be interested in a discussion of why Asian American parents are often so fixated on Ivy League schools, Harvard in particular. It always seemed to me evidence of their relative unfamiliarity as a group with American colleges. I used to work for Harvard, and while it has terrific resources and faculty, it’s not Heaven. I see parents pushing for Harvard whether or not it offers the program of study the student wants, or the aid, or is located in a convenient place, or is the right size for the student, or whatever. I’m afraid sometimes the name is all that matters.

Yeah it’s just Asian American parents.

I’m not sure you can dismiss this as “everybody does it.” I found this article summarizing applicants in a recent year, and it notes that about 5,000 applicants were Asian American and about 8700 were white: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/19/acceptance-rates-by-race/ So by definition a much higher percentage of Asian American students/parents are applying than white students/parents, compared to their proportion among high school students (Asian American students are about 5% of school age students: https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&rssid=25919941&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Few%2F%3Fuuid%3DB561B4E2-0214-11E9-8918-A498B3743667)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On a related topic, I’d be interested in a discussion of why Asian American parents are often so fixated on Ivy League schools, Harvard in particular. It always seemed to me evidence of their relative unfamiliarity as a group with American colleges. I used to work for Harvard, and while it has terrific resources and faculty, it’s not Heaven. I see parents pushing for Harvard whether or not it offers the program of study the student wants, or the aid, or is located in a convenient place, or is the right size for the student, or whatever. I’m afraid sometimes the name is all that matters.

Yeah it’s just Asian American parents.

I’m not sure you can dismiss this as “everybody does it.” I found this article summarizing applicants in a recent year, and it notes that about 5,000 applicants were Asian American and about 8700 were white: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/19/acceptance-rates-by-race/ So by definition a much higher percentage of Asian American students/parents are applying than white students/parents, compared to their proportion among high school students (Asian American students are about 5% of school age students: https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&rssid=25919941&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Few%2F%3Fuuid%3DB561B4E2-0214-11E9-8918-A498B3743667)

Maybe they know they’re going to get screwed so they need to apply to a wider set of schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go look at table 11 on page 49. I guess there is one admissions preference the authors don't want to talk about.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/legacyathlete.pdf

I’m usually a supporter of affirmative action but if this analysis is true it’s pretty damning. Half of Hispanic Harvard students and 2/3 of Harvard African American students wouldn’t have been admitted without racial preferences? Those numbers are high. People definitely find it offensive to be told “you wouldn’t be here without affirmative action, but these numbers say that is true much of the time.

Does it bother you that plenty of whites wouldn’t get in if they weren’t legacies or athletes?

Not at all. If you disallow all of the preferences, the number for whites don't change much. It might be different white kids, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I’m white. I feel really sad when I hear Asian Americans concerned about quotas. I think selective chools should figure out how to make extra slots available for Asian American kids, to ease their sense of anxiety about this, and to reflect the reality that Asian Americans just aren’t responsible for the effects of African slavery in America.

I wish there were more affirmative action for poor white kids from places with weak schools.

But I think affirmative action for African American and Hispanic kids at selective schools is generally a good thing.

Going to Harvard or Duke probably isn’t going to help a white, middle or upper income kid who can get in all that more than going to the kid’s state flagship would. That kid will probably have fun and have a good life either way.

If a poor kid or an URM kid gets into a super selective school, with great financial aid, that might lead to a huge gain in that kid’s lifetime income, and that kid’s success might improve the well-being of dozens or hundreds of other kids in that one super successful kid’s community. Cousins, friends and classmates may do better in school because they see the one kid moved up. The school board might be more likely to offer AP classes in that school because they see the school has had at least one great kid.

And I think diversity is critical for the white kids in a college. I went to an elementary school, in a city with a large African American community, that might have had two adopted African American kids in another grade. I was in middle school and high school classes where there was one African American student. I don’t think I ever saw two African American students that I knew talking to each other till I was in college. I think growing up with that kind of segregation is like growing up with a shackled arm, and never learning to move the arm. I’m a nice, moderately liberal person in terms of my politics and in terms of how I want to be, but I’ll always be neurologically racist, because of the lack of diversity in my surroundings when I was growing up.

Students who go to a college where only 5 percent of the students are African American or Hispanic aren’t being prepared to live in the real world. They might know how to design a microchip, but they won’t know anything about life beyond their small, fragile demographic bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think I read somewhere that at Brown U., if you take out all the spots for legacies, donors, athletes, international students, that leaves something like 10% of the spots open for the general public.

That’s probably why Brown and Cornell are considered soft ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go look at table 11 on page 49. I guess there is one admissions preference the authors don't want to talk about.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/legacyathlete.pdf

I’m usually a supporter of affirmative action but if this analysis is true it’s pretty damning. Half of Hispanic Harvard students and 2/3 of Harvard African American students wouldn’t have been admitted without racial preferences? Those numbers are high. People definitely find it offensive to be told “you wouldn’t be here without affirmative action, but these numbers say that is true much of the time.

Does it bother you that plenty of whites wouldn’t get in if they weren’t legacies or athletes?

Not at all. If you disallow all of the preferences, the number for whites don't change much. It might be different white kids, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I’m white. I feel really sad when I hear Asian Americans concerned about quotas. I think selective chools should figure out how to make extra slots available for Asian American kids, to ease their sense of anxiety about this, and to reflect the reality that Asian Americans just aren’t responsible for the effects of African slavery in America.

I wish there were more affirmative action for poor white kids from places with weak schools.

But I think affirmative action for African American and Hispanic kids at selective schools is generally a good thing.

Going to Harvard or Duke probably isn’t going to help a white, middle or upper income kid who can get in all that more than going to the kid’s state flagship would. That kid will probably have fun and have a good life either way.

If a poor kid or an URM kid gets into a super selective school, with great financial aid, that might lead to a huge gain in that kid’s lifetime income, and that kid’s success might improve the well-being of dozens or hundreds of other kids in that one super successful kid’s community. Cousins, friends and classmates may do better in school because they see the one kid moved up. The school board might be more likely to offer AP classes in that school because they see the school has had at least one great kid.

And I think diversity is critical for the white kids in a college. I went to an elementary school, in a city with a large African American community, that might have had two adopted African American kids in another grade. I was in middle school and high school classes where there was one African American student. I don’t think I ever saw two African American students that I knew talking to each other till I was in college. I think growing up with that kind of segregation is like growing up with a shackled arm, and never learning to move the arm. I’m a nice, moderately liberal person in terms of my politics and in terms of how I want to be, but I’ll always be neurologically racist, because of the lack of diversity in my surroundings when I was growing up.

Students who go to a college where only 5 percent of the students are African American or Hispanic aren’t being prepared to live in the real world. They might know how to design a microchip, but they won’t know anything about life beyond their small, fragile demographic bubble.

I agree with much of this, and grew up in a similar environment as you as a white child.

I would disagree, though, with one thing: it doesn’t matter if Asian Americans aren’t responsible for the enslavement of African Americans. Neither are any of today’s kids, of any race. The point is that our society as a whole caused the systematic oppression of African Americans, so our society as a whole has to fix it. If you want to benefit from the assets of living in America, you have to also be part of paying its debts.

[Anonymous]

Racial preferences at colleges have nothing to do with slavery. Nothing. They are not reparations.

Racial preferences at colleges exist because colleges feel a racial balance that more closely reflects the population better helps them achieve their mission. You can disagree that it does, but implying that the horror of slavery has anything (directly) to do with the current policy is an uninformed position.

If suddenly one year nearly no Asians applied to Harvard, the ones that did would benefit from the policy, as they do at colleges where they are under-represented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go look at table 11 on page 49. I guess there is one admissions preference the authors don't want to talk about.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/legacyathlete.pdf

I’m usually a supporter of affirmative action but if this analysis is true it’s pretty damning. Half of Hispanic Harvard students and 2/3 of Harvard African American students wouldn’t have been admitted without racial preferences? Those numbers are high. People definitely find it offensive to be told “you wouldn’t be here without affirmative action, but these numbers say that is true much of the time.

Does it bother you that plenty of whites wouldn’t get in if they weren’t legacies or athletes?

Not at all. If you disallow all of the preferences, the number for whites don't change much. It might be different white kids, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I’m white. I feel really sad when I hear Asian Americans concerned about quotas. I think selective chools should figure out how to make extra slots available for Asian American kids, to ease their sense of anxiety about this, and to reflect the reality that Asian Americans just aren’t responsible for the effects of African slavery in America.

I wish there were more affirmative action for poor white kids from places with weak schools.

But I think affirmative action for African American and Hispanic kids at selective schools is generally a good thing.

Going to Harvard or Duke probably isn’t going to help a white, middle or upper income kid who can get in all that more than going to the kid’s state flagship would. That kid will probably have fun and have a good life either way.

If a poor kid or an URM kid gets into a super selective school, with great financial aid, that might lead to a huge gain in that kid’s lifetime income, and that kid’s success might improve the well-being of dozens or hundreds of other kids in that one super successful kid’s community. Cousins, friends and classmates may do better in school because they see the one kid moved up. The school board might be more likely to offer AP classes in that school because they see the school has had at least one great kid.

And I think diversity is critical for the white kids in a college. I went to an elementary school, in a city with a large African American community, that might have had two adopted African American kids in another grade. I was in middle school and high school classes where there was one African American student. I don’t think I ever saw two African American students that I knew talking to each other till I was in college. I think growing up with that kind of segregation is like growing up with a shackled arm, and never learning to move the arm. I’m a nice, moderately liberal person in terms of my politics and in terms of how I want to be, but I’ll always be neurologically racist, because of the lack of diversity in my surroundings when I was growing up.

Students who go to a college where only 5 percent of the students are African American or Hispanic aren’t being prepared to live in the real world. They might know how to design a microchip, but they won’t know anything about life beyond their small, fragile demographic bubble.

I agree with much of this, and grew up in a similar environment as you as a white child.

I would disagree, though, with one thing: it doesn’t matter if Asian Americans aren’t responsible for the enslavement of African Americans. Neither are any of today’s kids, of any race. The point is that our society as a whole caused the systematic oppression of African Americans, so our society as a whole has to fix it. If you want to benefit from the assets of living in America, you have to also be part of paying its debts.

BS.

Or, start paying up reparations to Native Americans and to every country which has been attacked and bombed by the US in the last hundred years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go look at table 11 on page 49. I guess there is one admissions preference the authors don't want to talk about.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/legacyathlete.pdf

I’m usually a supporter of affirmative action but if this analysis is true it’s pretty damning. Half of Hispanic Harvard students and 2/3 of Harvard African American students wouldn’t have been admitted without racial preferences? Those numbers are high. People definitely find it offensive to be told “you wouldn’t be here without affirmative action, but these numbers say that is true much of the time.

Does it bother you that plenty of whites wouldn’t get in if they weren’t legacies or athletes?

Not at all. If you disallow all of the preferences, the number for whites don't change much. It might be different white kids, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I’m white. I feel really sad when I hear Asian Americans concerned about quotas. I think selective chools should figure out how to make extra slots available for Asian American kids, to ease their sense of anxiety about this, and to reflect the reality that Asian Americans just aren’t responsible for the effects of African slavery in America.

I wish there were more affirmative action for poor white kids from places with weak schools.

But I think affirmative action for African American and Hispanic kids at selective schools is generally a good thing.

Going to Harvard or Duke probably isn’t going to help a white, middle or upper income kid who can get in all that more than going to the kid’s state flagship would. That kid will probably have fun and have a good life either way.

If a poor kid or an URM kid gets into a super selective school, with great financial aid, that might lead to a huge gain in that kid’s lifetime income, and that kid’s success might improve the well-being of dozens or hundreds of other kids in that one super successful kid’s community. Cousins, friends and classmates may do better in school because they see the one kid moved up. The school board might be more likely to offer AP classes in that school because they see the school has had at least one great kid.

And I think diversity is critical for the white kids in a college. I went to an elementary school, in a city with a large African American community, that might have had two adopted African American kids in another grade. I was in middle school and high school classes where there was one African American student. I don’t think I ever saw two African American students that I knew talking to each other till I was in college. I think growing up with that kind of segregation is like growing up with a shackled arm, and never learning to move the arm. I’m a nice, moderately liberal person in terms of my politics and in terms of how I want to be, but I’ll always be neurologically racist, because of the lack of diversity in my surroundings when I was growing up.

Students who go to a college where only 5 percent of the students are African American or Hispanic aren’t being prepared to live in the real world. They might know how to design a microchip, but they won’t know anything about life beyond their small, fragile demographic bubble.

I agree with much of this, and grew up in a similar environment as you as a white child.

I would disagree, though, with one thing: it doesn’t matter if Asian Americans aren’t responsible for the enslavement of African Americans. Neither are any of today’s kids, of any race. The point is that our society as a whole caused the systematic oppression of African Americans, so our society as a whole has to fix it. If you want to benefit from the assets of living in America, you have to also be part of paying its debts.

BS.

Or, start paying up reparations to Native Americans and to every country which has been attacked and bombed by the US in the last hundred years.

you could certainly make the moral argument that the US should do both, and the moral failure of US to do the right thing in these instances shouldn't be used as an excuse not to the right thing in the case of slavery. If this is your argument, it can be used to support doing (or not doing) anything. Why should you donate to any one charity since you don't donate to everyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Going to Harvard or Duke probably isn’t going to help a white, middle or upper income kid who can get in all that more than going to the kid’s state flagship would. That kid will probably have fun and have a good life either way.

Well, F*** you, you racist pig. Why isn't this true for a middle or upper income kid of ANY race?

This is what happens when people start evaluating people as members of group rather than individuals. It's really easy to discount the desires of people when they are just part of that group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Going to Harvard or Duke probably isn’t going to help a white, middle or upper income kid who can get in all that more than going to the kid’s state flagship would. That kid will probably have fun and have a good life either way.

Well, F*** you, you racist pig. Why isn't this true for a middle or upper income kid of ANY race?

This is what happens when people start evaluating people as members of group rather than individuals. It's really easy to discount the desires of people when they are just part of that group.

Well, because once those nonwhite kids leave school, they have to deal with people who care about what race they are. They need the extra credential of a college to have a fighting chance make it past the other barriers that erected in society. In contrast, little white Jimmy can just go myriad places where people overlook merit in favor of 'fit' and 'team player'.

The reality is that only colleges are held up to same false meritocratic standard. We don't allocate anything else in society in this manner - jobs, promotions, raises. Very little of it has to do with merit.

[Anonymous]

As a white person out of college, I have to deal with people like you who seems to be the only person who cares what race I am. Why is that any different? Face it, you are the racist here, not me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a white person out of college, I have to deal with people like you who seems to be the only person who cares what race I am. Why is that any different? Face it, you are the racist here, not me.

since i'm white, does that make both of us racists? i'm confused now.

look, i get that you're incredibly insecure because you didn't to where you are because of merit, but that's just me telling it like it is and not being politically correct. You like that, right?

[Anonymous]

Furthermore, under your theory all nonwhites should suffer in society and therefore all nonwhites need to be advantaged relative to white people. How do you explain the relative success of Asians in this country when they, by your argument, should face the same issues as any other nonwhites?

There is a long history of disfavored ethnic groups succeeding against long odds and then, once the succeed, are lumped into the "white" category of society's oppressors. Look at the Irish, Southern Europeans, and the Jews. Saying society does not have social mobility based on at least somewhat on meritocracy is a direct insult to member of these groups.