S/O High SES students will perform well no matter their peer group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced classes don’t lead to better outcomes. https://medium.com/edmodoblog/avoid-ap-course-overload-it-matters-less-than-you-think-3382c064d7f2

That's not exactly what the article said, but in any event, AP is only one form of "advanced classes" and only for high school level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“research shows that middle-class students tend to do as well academically in economically mixed schools. But more than that, there's emerging research to suggest that, indeed, middle-class students benefit from both economic and racial diversity.”

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/03/16/5157886...ck-to-improve-student-outcomes

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/10/19/4460855...enefit-from-integrated-schools


https://tcf.org/content/facts/the-benefits-of-soci...ools-and-classrooms/?session=1

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ995900.pdf

NP here, but the only things the studies cite is that standardized test scores don't dip and kids "might" become more empathtic and work well in groups. The first one is too low and too general a fact to convince me that my particular kids would attend the same colleges they might if they were at Wilson. The second two are not science, but theory and unproven theory at that. Separately, Wilson is very diverse -- a lot more diverse than most other DC highschools.

*diverse for now. Won’t be diverse at all once Hardy is 90% IB and of Shepherd/Bancroft get booted like most want.

I’ll do y’all one better. How about you show me a study that shows wealthy white kids are harmed by SES/racial diversity?

By what definition? Most of these studies talk about standardized test scores and college-readiness. That is not the threshold for success that I want for my kids. I don't want them to aim for a middling college degree. And again, telling me that in general test scores don't dip doesn't convince me that my particular children won't see a difference in achievement if they attend a school like Coolidge where only 62% of freshman complete 9th grade in one year and with 0% of AP performance.

Your rich white kid will do just fine at Coolidge. If these kids can go to good colleges (and they are likely low income themselves) despite going to a school with low graduate rate (BECAUSE they are low income), the your wealthy white can excel too.

https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1411236
https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1410991
https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1409386

*they only featured 2 kids each school

You are taking 3 people and extrapolating.

But lets poke a little further into these bios:

1) Tenyeh Dixon --- is a football recruit. https://247sports.com/Player/Tenyeh-Dixon-46051046/


2) Betelhem Mekonnen (C’23), an incoming first-year student from Washington, DC, says Georgetown’s pre-college programs prepared her well as she transitions into being a student at a top university...Mekonnen, a valedictorian of Coolidge High School in Northwest DC, took part in Georgetown’s College Exposure-Dual Enrollment Program, which allows high school seniors from DC public schools to enroll in courses at local universities.

-CMEA college preparatory programs join a number of others across campus that reinforce the university’s commitment to improved access to higher education for students from diverse cultural and economic backgrounds.

-- So she's the valedictorian and got into a program designed for students who are disadvantaged.

3) Olinda Rodriguez -- won one of 24 FCBA scholarships given to DC high schoolers. Additionally, GW ranks 70th by USN. Not my goal for my kid.

Thrilled for all these kids, but I don't see how these three kids tell me anything about how my kids will perform.

Betelhem Mekonnen did well at Coolidge, cos small school so hard working, well-behaved, motivated Ethiopian students can work together and rise to the top at that school right now. If you'd have sent her or another very small group of like-minded students to Ballou, I doubt she'd have survived more that a couple of days! So it depends on the school, the populations, if low SES students have a support network, etc. As Coolidge expands and more non-ELL students attend maybe they won't perform so well, it's all relative. Parents have to make wise choices, sometimes what appears on paper may not seem a good school but there are many ways to rise to the top and succeed. Congratulations to Belelham and any other DCPS graduated seniors!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies that would show what would happen to your specific child under specific different scenarios. We only have general studies and averages. Your child could end up with the "wrong crowd" at Wilson, could end up a "star pupil" at Coolidge, or "hate school" at McKinley. We cannot see the future, or any number of given circumstances that could impact the way your child turns out.

Generally speaking, your child will be "fine." Fine means a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. For most people, this scenario is all you could want for a child.

If you want "more" than that, then yes, you probably need to figure out some different ways to give your kids more of an advantage. Maybe that is private tutoring, sports coaching, art lessons, music school, etc. Maybe that is a different High School, Private School, Homeschool, etc. Maybe it is Harvard or bust. Maybe it is the Olympics or failure. But those types of goals are not what most people expect for their kids. And therefore, most studies will not tell you whether your future Harvard/Olympian/Presidential candidate/Supreme Court Justice/etc will be "fine" at any high school in DC.

I would venture to say that for the majority of WOTP families, "more" is what they expect. They aren't just looking for a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. They are looking for an education that can open up the pathways to a career and income level of the kid's choosing. They are looking for access to the same level of education for their child as they had themselves -- which is generally from very competitive colleges and grad schools. They are looking at the chances of their kid doing that at all types of schools. Looking at a high poverty school, I know my kid would need to fight to get the education I want them to have. That risk is too high for me.

In that case, you have to recognize that you are an outlier. While there might be a bunch in your surrounding area, you are not representative of the people these studies are made for. Additionally, you have to recognize that public schools are generally made for the average person. Government funded schools cannot cater to such a small subset of the population. What works for most everyone else, will not work for you.

For people in this category, I would recommend pursuing a private school that meets all your desires. This isn't snark. It is just accepting that the DC public school system is perhaps not going to meet your needs. And that is ok. Please remember, however, that for most people the DC school system will meet the needs of their child- and that too is ok.

I wouldn't recommend this at all, no matter where a kid falls on the academic spectrum. I'd recommend sending your children to the best DC public schools you can access while supplementing on academics, possibly like mad. Meet you own needs- we've installed a grad student in English lit in our attic bedroom, who supervises and jazzes up homework assignments. Hire tutors, send the kids to high octane academic camps, offer them rewards to work through Khan Academy videos, get them music lessons, have them learn to speak a language other than English fluently.

This is what my parents did, although my high school ranked in the bottom quarter in the state. I have a PhD from an Ivy League school. As a kid and teen, I learned to get a long, and respect, classmates who did poorly on the academic front, but excelled in other areas. Some of my former classmates who barely graduated high school have gone on to make a lot of money, and to enjoy happy seeming personal lives. Hint: public schools teach invaluable lessons in tolerance.

[Anonymous]

CMI shows that is not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with PP that public schools are designed to teach the average masses. If your child falls outside of that average- for whatever reason- you might need to either (1) gain special accommodations for your child or (2) find a different school. DC schools do not seem to be in the business of accommodations for extremely advanced and/or gifted kids. So kids in this category might have to look elsewhere. It isn't the big deal that people make it out to be. Like everything else in life, you need or want something different than the basic (free) option, pay for the upgrade.

lol this is how you justify paying private tuition.

the actual academic elite kids don't need private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with PP that public schools are designed to teach the average masses. If your child falls outside of that average- for whatever reason- you might need to either (1) gain special accommodations for your child or (2) find a different school. DC schools do not seem to be in the business of accommodations for extremely advanced and/or gifted kids. So kids in this category might have to look elsewhere. It isn't the big deal that people make it out to be. Like everything else in life, you need or want something different than the basic (free) option, pay for the upgrade.

lol this is how you justify paying private tuition.

the actual academic elite kids don't need private schools.

I’m trying to figure out how paying $45,000 year is no big deal. Meanwhile, how does PP justify throwing up her hands and saying public school only needs to educate the middle-achievers? We think everyone should pay taxes, depending on income, but not everyone should expect a reasonable education?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To me the issue is the definition of "well." Will they complete HS and attend college? Is that the definition? If so, that bar is too low for me.

+1. I'd argue attending a top 50 or even top 30 college is a low bar, or at least doesn't come close to painting a full picture. What they actually do in college and the first job or grad school is what tells the true story. I know quite a few kids who got into prestige colleges and just seemed to spin their wheels academically and socially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced classes don’t lead to better outcomes. https://medium.com/edmodoblog/avoid-ap-course-overload-it-matters-less-than-you-think-3382c064d7f2

That's not exactly what the article said, but in any event, AP is only one form of "advanced classes" and only for high school level.

[blockquote]...as one widely-cited study by Klopfenstein and Thomas (2010) found, “there is no evidence from methodologically rigorous studies that AP experience causes students to be successful in college.”

While the research from the CollegeBoard has consistently found that AP courses provide benefits, one summary of the research reports that this is in big part because AP “students tend to be from higher income families, are more likely to be White and attend suburban schools, and have better academic preparation for high school than non-AP students.” [/blockquote]

So go ahead and do what you want but know that the conventional wisdom is not some slam dunk put down of anyone else. I understand that Americans make residential choices based on assumptions and beliefs about how school environments will affect their children’s outcomes. But segregation for educational outcomes is not a choice you must make. And I will not, and I will not just stand by and let DCUM ‘wisdom’ affect my choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced classes don’t lead to better outcomes. https://medium.com/edmodoblog/avoid-ap-course-overload-it-matters-less-than-you-think-3382c064d7f2

That's not exactly what the article said, but in any event, AP is only one form of "advanced classes" and only for high school level.

[blockquote]...as one widely-cited study by Klopfenstein and Thomas (2010) found, “there is no evidence from methodologically rigorous studies that AP experience causes students to be successful in college.”

While the research from the CollegeBoard has consistently found that AP courses provide benefits, one summary of the research reports that this is in big part because AP “students tend to be from higher income families, are more likely to be White and attend suburban schools, and have better academic preparation for high school than non-AP students.” [/blockquote]

So go ahead and do what you want but know that the conventional wisdom is not some slam dunk put down of anyone else. I understand that Americans make residential choices based on assumptions and beliefs about how school environments will affect their children’s outcomes. But segregation for educational outcomes is not a choice you must make. And I will not, and I will not just stand by and let DCUM ‘wisdom’ affect my choices. The

The supposed purpose of AP is getting college credit, not doing better in college.

But whatever. AP =\= advanced classes. That point seems to escape you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced classes don’t lead to better outcomes. https://medium.com/edmodoblog/avoid-ap-course-overload-it-matters-less-than-you-think-3382c064d7f2

That's not exactly what the article said, but in any event, AP is only one form of "advanced classes" and only for high school level.

[blockquote]...as one widely-cited study by Klopfenstein and Thomas (2010) found, “there is no evidence from methodologically rigorous studies that AP experience causes students to be successful in college.”

While the research from the CollegeBoard has consistently found that AP courses provide benefits, one summary of the research reports that this is in big part because AP “students tend to be from higher income families, are more likely to be White and attend suburban schools, and have better academic preparation for high school than non-AP students.” [/blockquote]

So go ahead and do what you want but know that the conventional wisdom is not some slam dunk put down of anyone else. I understand that Americans make residential choices based on assumptions and beliefs about how school environments will affect their children’s outcomes. But segregation for educational outcomes is not a choice you must make. And I will not, and I will not just stand by and let DCUM ‘wisdom’ affect my choices.

The article actually said to take "honors courses," rather than AP courses. Basically, AP courses are not honors courses because they don't challenge deep thinking and merely teach to the test. Not coincidentally, private schools are discontinuing AP classes because they don't sufficiently challenge the mind.

It's the intellectual processing speed of the classroom cohort that matters for high-achieving students. The article merely supports that truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a spin off of the Wilson thread but I am interested to know what research says about why high SES kids(as a proxy for children of educated mothers) will do well no matter their peer group to a point. I have read about the correlation to education of the mother. As an educated mother, I suspect that part of why my kids will do well is because I will ensure that they attend strong schools. That is, I will move or take other actions as necessary to ensure good educational outcomes, not that the fact of having an educated mother without more will cause my children to succeed academically. So, when someone says to me that I should not worry about the observed outcomes of a school because my children will be fine no matter what, my reaction is of course they will be fine precisely because I would never send them to such a school.

Go ahead, call me racist or whatever but I am really Interested in knowing whether and, if so, how the research accounts for this.

I agree with the research and gave observed in our personal experience. That said, I would think the assumption should be premised on “all things being equal”. In other words the teachers at high/low poverty schools are of similar caliber, access to resources/curriculum, etc. AND I would add similar levels of classroom climate. In my experience at the middle/high level, this isn’t always true. High poverty schools may have more disruptive kids whose parents are less likely to address problems, and that’s where a major source of imbalance occurs...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a spin off of the Wilson thread but I am interested to know what research says about why high SES kids(as a proxy for children of educated mothers) will do well no matter their peer group to a point. I have read about the correlation to education of the mother. As an educated mother, I suspect that part of why my kids will do well is because I will ensure that they attend strong schools. That is, I will move or take other actions as necessary to ensure good educational outcomes, not that the fact of having an educated mother without more will cause my children to succeed academically. So, when someone says to me that I should not worry about the observed outcomes of a school because my children will be fine no matter what, my reaction is of course they will be fine precisely because I would never send them to such a school.

Go ahead, call me racist or whatever but I am really Interested in knowing whether and, if so, how the research accounts for this.

I agree with the research and gave observed in our personal experience. That said, I would think the assumption should be premised on “all things being equal”. In other words the teachers at high/low poverty schools are of similar caliber, access to resources/curriculum, etc. AND I would add similar levels of classroom climate. In my experience at the middle/high level, this isn’t always true. High poverty schools may have more disruptive kids whose parents are less likely to address problems, and that’s where a major source of imbalance occurs...

Thanks. I read the comments here as suggesting that, regardless of whether things are equal, I (or someone like me) am racist if I refuse to send my child to an objectively sub par school because my child will be fine as a result of having educated parents and a high SES. I think the educated parent characteristics include ensuring “all things are equal” and not sending your child to a sub par school and this impacts the correlation (evidence) everyone relies on. I am not speaking about my own child here, I am speaking of such parents and children generally.

I will add that I completely support SES integration for the benefit of all the students, but it has to be a good school and the research supports less than 50% low SES to achieve the benefits. I absolutely do not, however, trust DCPS to do this well if they cannot even sufficiently resource the one high performing comprehensive high that currently exists in the city.

[Anonymous]

I think everyone is forgetting that the purpose of the class is to learn, and what you learn and are taught matters. I have always been grateful for the amazing teachers I had in my advanced and AP classes. I’m sure there were also good teachers in the regular track (some even the same) but the content I got to learn was incredible and made me want to keep on learning. The expectations and workload and above all concepts and ideas we grappled with in high school (public school by the way) I still can think back on now. History, math, English AP, all blew my mind to be frank. I don’t see how you put a number on that and I certainly feel lucky for it. I won’t settle for less for my kids that’s for sure.

[Anonymous]

I do want more than the basic course to exist at my kid’s middle and high school. I don’t need better students but if my kid is ready for Algebra I want them in that class, whether that is in 7th, 8th, or 9th grade. I want a humanities yep English class available rather than just a teach to the test core curriculum English class. That was available in my podunk nowhere hometown. I can’t say if they need Calculus. In none of this does my kid have to be placed with a high achiever only cohort. The class that offers the opportunity simply needs to be open to them joining it as they learn up to that level.

[Anonymous]

The problem is that it’s the high SES families that are expected to accept risk without any concessions or guarantees. If DCPS were to remove, say, Lafayette from Deal they better darn well guarantee in an EOTP school there will be tracking, zero tolerance for disruptive students and those with poor attendance, crack down on residency fraud, etc. But DCPS will never do that. So instead they try to sell some immeasurable benefit like our kids will be “able to work well diverse groups in the future.” That’s just not enough.