SAT "adversity" adjustment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holistic admissions colleges already factor this stuff in. Now they do it with census tract data, noting whether a high school is Title 1/how many students qualify for free or reduced meals.

SAT is doing this to make it easier for colleges - who won't have to compute this on their own - and try to make themselves indispensable to an admissions offices.

I believe it is really a defensive move by College Board so they don't get completely sidelined by the SAT-optional movement. If they are able to offer these social adversity scores together with SAT, then the admissions offices won't need to or won't be allowed to just ignore SAT scores because the usual SAT-optional constituency (i.e. disadvantaged students and their families) will see the SAT as an attractive test to submit so they can get the "extra points" in admissions compared to high-scoring advantaged populations but still show that they are better than the next student in their own classroom. It is a way to make the SAT less irrelevant to college admissions offices. Notice they are using both school-based geographic factors as well as student-specific factors so that colleges will have to subscribe and encourage all students to continue to take the SAT. I would say it is a pretty good business strategy for the college board. Although, I am sure at some point after enough people sue them they will have to release these scores to the students themselves, otherwise, students will just take the ACT instead and you will only have poor students taking the SAT and most of the advantaged middle and upper middle class students will take the ACT.

Bing. Bing. Bing.

I see this as moving kids over to the ACT

I just read an article that says that the ACT is working on a similar index. There is no escaping this.

This is also how US News, Niche and Great Schools are now ranking high schools.

People are freaking out for no reason. This really isn't going to change much at all for applicants. It may mean that admissions offices can hire fewer staff members, because the expertise they develop about which schools offer what - APs, advanced courses and so forth - will now be in a database.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's to stop a kid from lying about income to College Board? Many kids may not actually even know an accurate answer.

I would tell my child things not to report unless it was mandatory. I don’t want to give my kid a HHI number anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This should also stop the insanity, shenanigans, and pressure around trying to get into those "elite" high schools...LOL

Now kids will hopefully stay at their local neighborhood schools...and all of the schools will get better as opposed to the brain drain...

Right. People won’t go for TJ because it might change their adversity number. /s

Keep dreaming. TJ kids are known as TJ kids whether their “number” is high or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/sat-to-give-students-adversity-score-to-capture-social-and-economic-background-11557999000

Wonder how they'll define adversity.

It is hard for me to support it as a "donut hole" parent, but I do recognize that this is appropriate direction given how prep classes routinely up SAT scores by 200-300 points.

Thoughts?

this is a fallacy--I think external studies have that when you use a real SAT for pre and a real SAT for post (not some in-house equivalent amassed from selecting problems from prior tests or creating analogues)prep raised scores on average 30-40 pts (which is not unsubstantial, but not drastic) and that most prep places massaged data in ways to make gains appear far larger than an external assessment would find.

I taught LSAT and SAT Math prep in law school as my side gig for Princeton Review. This is true. Most of the gain then were in math, because verbal is hard to move. Now, reading comp is hard to move, and English sentence, grammar section is less so. Most gains are based on test familiarity, which kids can get without spending thousands of dollars. I was able to move my kids scores 60 points in about 10-15 hours with just the SAT Book of 8 released tests.

So, as an aside, I will save you thousands of dollars.

Have your kid take a released copy. Look at what they missed. How many in each section. Pick their weakest section that isn’t reading comp— the RC score is very hard to move. Your kid has either read their whole life or not. So, look where they can get the most points back with the least effort.

Have your kid work through the SAT Test Book pointers on their worst, no RC section, and do some Kahn Academy on that section.

Have your kid kid retake their worst section only several times using the released tests and really look and understand what they missed and why.

Repeat if you have time and they missed a significant number of questions on their second worst non RC section.

Take another couple full tests in the lead up to the SAT.

That’s all most test prep companies do. And they are less efficient, because they are teaching to a class and do both language and math, which your kid might not need. And they have to pretend RC will move. It won’t.

I think that you are thinking along the lines of a standard SAT test prep course...vs a test prep lifestyle...where they actively spend time working on test prep from 6th grade on up...

If you familiarize yourself with the test on that level, your scores will increase dramatically...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, but what I see here is people already trying to figure out how to game the system. that was my first thought -- our house is in a high SES district, but our summer house is in a place with a shitty school district. Why can't I just have the kid take the exam there over the summer and use that address? That kind of thing. I predict you're gonna see a lot more of that kind of stuff and after Felicity huffman and the rowing machine and all that, people will feel completely justified in gaming the system in this way.

My God you people are total idiots! You can use your summer house address all you want but you still have to put down what high school your kid went to for god sake’s.

UMC people trying to fake low SES....hard when they won’t touch low SES with a 10-foot pole. But go ahead. Try.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it discriminatory to do this? Isn't it meant to essentially prejudice admissions? And how would it work with "need blind" admissions?

Discriminatory against what, or who? The way that they are doing this is completely legal...and will get to race, without ever saying race...making it unlikely to be successfully challenged in court...

I love it...and I'm affluent, and live in an affluent school district...*shrug*

It's fair...

If it is used to add value to lower scores, it's not discriminatory because it's opening opportunity, not taking it away. If it's used to temper higher scores of high SES students, it's discriminatory, because it's diminishing opportunity based on static factors which is why it should only be offered to colleges for scores below a certain threshold, like maybe around 1000 or so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This should also stop the insanity, shenanigans, and pressure around trying to get into those "elite" high schools...LOL

Now kids will hopefully stay at their local neighborhood schools...and all of the schools will get better as opposed to the brain drain...

Right. People won’t go for TJ because it might change their adversity number. /s

Keep dreaming. TJ kids are known as TJ kids whether their “number” is high or not.

I worked in college admissions...the people doing the first cut, are work study students...they don't know TJ, from Springfield to WestPo...locally it's a big deal, nationally, hell regionally outside of VA, no one gives a shit...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I wonder if it makes sense for education-centric families to move to poor performing school districts. Private school if possible in upper elementary and maybe middle, then HS in some 3/10 horror that gives and option to effectively take full days at the local community college, just coming back for gym and "leadership". 9th and 10th grades are hardest because, since those schools teach on a subpar level, kids will need to effectively homeschool in addition to spending wasted hours in the 3/10. However, maybe they can be "sick" a lot, like a lot.

And we'll never have to worry about our kids becoming SJW.

And celebrate our kids becoming W**te Sup**ma**sts? Its like one shot and two birds! No, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/sat-to-give-students-adversity-score-to-capture-social-and-economic-background-11557999000

Wonder how they'll define adversity.

It is hard for me to support it as a "donut hole" parent, but I do recognize that this is appropriate direction given how prep classes routinely up SAT scores by 200-300 points.

Thoughts?

this is a fallacy--I think external studies have that when you use a real SAT for pre and a real SAT for post (not some in-house equivalent amassed from selecting problems from prior tests or creating analogues)prep raised scores on average 30-40 pts (which is not unsubstantial, but not drastic) and that most prep places massaged data in ways to make gains appear far larger than an external assessment would find.

I taught LSAT and SAT Math prep in law school as my side gig for Princeton Review. This is true. Most of the gain then were in math, because verbal is hard to move. Now, reading comp is hard to move, and English sentence, grammar section is less so. Most gains are based on test familiarity, which kids can get without spending thousands of dollars. I was able to move my kids scores 60 points in about 10-15 hours with just the SAT Book of 8 released tests.

So, as an aside, I will save you thousands of dollars.

Have your kid take a released copy. Look at what they missed. How many in each section. Pick their weakest section that isn’t reading comp— the RC score is very hard to move. Your kid has either read their whole life or not. So, look where they can get the most points back with the least effort.

Have your kid work through the SAT Test Book pointers on their worst, no RC section, and do some Kahn Academy on that section.

Have your kid kid retake their worst section only several times using the released tests and really look and understand what they missed and why.

Repeat if you have time and they missed a significant number of questions on their second worst non RC section.

Take another couple full tests in the lead up to the SAT.

That’s all most test prep companies do. And they are less efficient, because they are teaching to a class and do both language and math, which your kid might not need. And they have to pretend RC will move. It won’t.

I think that you are thinking along the lines of a standard SAT test prep course...vs a test prep lifestyle...where they actively spend time working on test prep from 6th grade on up...

If you familiarize yourself with the test on that level, your scores will increase dramatically...

Plus, PP, those are great suggestions, thank you. Khan academy SAT Prep does pretty much what you are suggesting, I believe. And it's free. So that is already leveling the playing field as far as test prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This should also stop the insanity, shenanigans, and pressure around trying to get into those "elite" high schools...LOL

Now kids will hopefully stay at their local neighborhood schools...and all of the schools will get better as opposed to the brain drain...

Right. People won’t go for TJ because it might change their adversity number. /s

Keep dreaming. TJ kids are known as TJ kids whether their “number” is high or not.

I worked in college admissions...the people doing the first cut, are work study students...they don't know TJ, from Springfield to WestPo...locally it's a big deal, nationally, hell regionally outside of VA, no one gives a shit...

How do they make the first cut? Is it just scores? EC's?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This should also stop the insanity, shenanigans, and pressure around trying to get into those "elite" high schools...LOL

Now kids will hopefully stay at their local neighborhood schools...and all of the schools will get better as opposed to the brain drain...

Right. People won’t go for TJ because it might change their adversity number. /s

Keep dreaming. TJ kids are known as TJ kids whether their “number” is high or not.

I worked in college admissions...the people doing the first cut, are work study students...they don't know TJ, from Springfield to WestPo...locally it's a big deal, nationally, hell regionally outside of VA, no one gives a shit...

How do they make the first cut? Is it just scores? EC's?

It depends. For example at a big state school such as Ohio State, scores and GPA are pretty much all that matter. They do read essays but it's cursory. They tell you to only submit one rec letter etc.

At a college like Williams, they will go through everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So much for parents sacrificing to move into a nice, safe neighborhood with a good neighborhood school. When you can spend half the price and buy in a crappy school system and get your kid into any school they want.

This idea is half baked.

This was not well though through.

This is one GOOD thing about this index. Neighborhood school disparity is one of the worst things about the American educational system. You cannot take credit (and your kid can't take credit) for your kid's life success when it's bought and paid for.

Bullshit. If you work hard to buy a nice house in a good school district, you can absolutely take credit for your kid's success. Facilitating their success is why you are doing it. If you didn't care about your kid's success, you wouldn't have to care where you lived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This should also stop the insanity, shenanigans, and pressure around trying to get into those "elite" high schools...LOL

Now kids will hopefully stay at their local neighborhood schools...and all of the schools will get better as opposed to the brain drain...

Right. People won’t go for TJ because it might change their adversity number. /s

Keep dreaming. TJ kids are known as TJ kids whether their “number” is high or not.

I worked in college admissions...the people doing the first cut, are work study students...they don't know TJ, from Springfield to WestPo...locally it's a big deal, nationally, hell regionally outside of VA, no one gives a shit...

You must be at a shitty school like George Mason, which TJ students wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it discriminatory to do this? Isn't it meant to essentially prejudice admissions? And how would it work with "need blind" admissions?

Discriminatory against what, or who? The way that they are doing this is completely legal...and will get to race, without ever saying race...making it unlikely to be successfully challenged in court...

I love it...and I'm affluent, and live in an affluent school district...*shrug*

It's fair...

If it is used to add value to lower scores, it's not discriminatory because it's opening opportunity, not taking it away. If it's used to temper higher scores of high SES students, it's discriminatory, because it's diminishing opportunity based on static factors which is why it should only be offered to colleges for scores below a certain threshold, like maybe around 1000 or so.

Yea! I like your definition of what is and what isn't discrimination. Lets add 600 points to everyone who scores 1000 or less. I bet the smart ones will shoot for 1000 and not one point more or less to get a perfect 1600. Ask the infamous Mr. Singer and his SAT/ACT test taking Harvard Alumnus. They can get you the exact score you want, not less and not more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/sat-to-give-students-adversity-score-to-capture-social-and-economic-background-11557999000

Wonder how they'll define adversity.

It is hard for me to support it as a "donut hole" parent, but I do recognize that this is appropriate direction given how prep classes routinely up SAT scores by 200-300 points.

Thoughts?

this is a fallacy--I think external studies have that when you use a real SAT for pre and a real SAT for post (not some in-house equivalent amassed from selecting problems from prior tests or creating analogues)prep raised scores on average 30-40 pts (which is not unsubstantial, but not drastic) and that most prep places massaged data in ways to make gains appear far larger than an external assessment would find.

I taught LSAT and SAT Math prep in law school as my side gig for Princeton Review. This is true. Most of the gain then were in math, because verbal is hard to move. Now, reading comp is hard to move, and English sentence, grammar section is less so. Most gains are based on test familiarity, which kids can get without spending thousands of dollars. I was able to move my kids scores 60 points in about 10-15 hours with just the SAT Book of 8 released tests.

So, as an aside, I will save you thousands of dollars.

Have your kid take a released copy. Look at what they missed. How many in each section. Pick their weakest section that isn’t reading comp— the RC score is very hard to move. Your kid has either read their whole life or not. So, look where they can get the most points back with the least effort.

Have your kid work through the SAT Test Book pointers on their worst, no RC section, and do some Kahn Academy on that section.

Have your kid kid retake their worst section only several times using the released tests and really look and understand what they missed and why.

Repeat if you have time and they missed a significant number of questions on their second worst non RC section.

Take another couple full tests in the lead up to the SAT.

That’s all most test prep companies do. And they are less efficient, because they are teaching to a class and do both language and math, which your kid might not need. And they have to pretend RC will move. It won’t.

I think that you are thinking along the lines of a standard SAT test prep course...vs a test prep lifestyle...where they actively spend time working on test prep from 6th grade on up...

If you familiarize yourself with the test on that level, your scores will increase dramatically...

Plus, PP, those are great suggestions, thank you. Khan academy SAT Prep does pretty much what you are suggesting, I believe. And it's free. So that is already leveling the playing field as far as test prep.

It’s more than the actual prep course. Does the child have access to a device to take the Khan course? Does he or she have Internet at home? Or does the child have to go the library to use the Internet? Does the child have a way to get to the library? Does he or she have parents in the house to supervise nightly prep, or do the parents work at night? Does the child work at night? Do the parents know the importance of test prep, and encourage it?