Leaving DC for a lower COL area

[Anonymous]

Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you done it?

We are strongly considering it over the course of the next five years. We have to make it work with careers, of course, but if we can, we'd like to head back to upstate NY to be closer to family and to be in a lower COL area.

We didn't get on the property ladder when we should have and now are still renting while paying for childcare, saving for college, and saving for retirement. We simply cannot afford a home in the city that would guarantee good school options through high school. We hate the thought of long commutes and what that will mean for spending time with our kids. DC is increasingly expensive and we think we can have a better quality of life elsewhere. BUT I am sure I am romanticizing, and there are likely plenty of factors I am not considering. So, have you done it? Have you left for a lower COL area, and if so, what have been the pros and cons?

What is a property ladder?

Not the PP, but I’m guessing that it means constantly trading up houses to keep up with the Joneses and generate fees for RE agents.

. So a fun term for wasting money on a condo.

I mean, not really. It means buying property early on, gaining equity that you trade up for a larger or otherwise better property, and so on.

In my family the ones that bought and stated have much more equity in their house and more money saved than the ones who bought and sold and bought and sold up the “ladder”. I think saving up for what works first seems to work better. You may have to move because circumstances change and jobs change, but to move for a bigger and bugger house just does not make sense to me. YMMV.

Great plan! Perhaps you can loan OP the down payment?

Haha, OP here and I cosign this idea!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you done it?

We are strongly considering it over the course of the next five years. We have to make it work with careers, of course, but if we can, we'd like to head back to upstate NY to be closer to family and to be in a lower COL area.

We didn't get on the property ladder when we should have and now are still renting while paying for childcare, saving for college, and saving for retirement. We simply cannot afford a home in the city that would guarantee good school options through high school. We hate the thought of long commutes and what that will mean for spending time with our kids. DC is increasingly expensive and we think we can have a better quality of life elsewhere. BUT I am sure I am romanticizing, and there are likely plenty of factors I am not considering. So, have you done it? Have you left for a lower COL area, and if so, what have been the pros and cons?

What is a property ladder?

Not the PP, but I’m guessing that it means constantly trading up houses to keep up with the Joneses and generate fees for RE agents.

. So a fun term for wasting money on a condo.

I mean, not really. It means buying property early on, gaining equity that you trade up for a larger or otherwise better property, and so on.

Buying a condo isn't always the smart way to get on the ladder. As many condo owners will tell you. Minimal appreciation, even underwater. And this is 10 years after the crash.

Real estate always involves luck if you see significant appreciation in a short period. Plenty of people who bought what was considered solid value investments in Potomac and Great Falls and other suburban areas are struggling to sell today what they paid 15 years ago..... But if you bought in a transitional DC neighborhood 15 years ago you've definitely made out like a bandit. But you had to be in the position to do that. Not just living in DC at the time, but willing to invest in a risky area with bad schools.

"Risky" isn't the right word. Nothing about the relative rise of DC housing prices and the relative decline of far-out places like Potomac and Great Falls was unexpected. Lots of people could have told you this was going to happen, because this is the pattern of prices virtually everywhere else in the world. The only reasons DC managed to stay so cheap for so long were its particularly violent history around desegregation and the severity of its crack epidemic in the early 90s.

The reason that more people didn't invest in DC real estate years ago is just that they didn't want to be owner occupiers in neighborhoods that hadn't yet gentrified. The writing has been on the wall for the last 15-20 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

+1. A lot of people on this forum seem to not realize that real estate prices have climbed in many other parts of the country. It’s like they think real estate is what it was when they were growing up. Even looking at my childhood home I was shocked how much it costs now.

You can probably find a less expensive house but for real estate to truly be MUCH cheaper means the job market in that area is limited and there is limited money to push up real estate prices. Also don’t discount moving from an area with public transportation to one where people have multiple cars per family. When driving around MCOL areas I’m always shocked at how most of the cars are new and fancy. It’s like instead of spending more on real estate they spend it on cars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you done it?

We are strongly considering it over the course of the next five years. We have to make it work with careers, of course, but if we can, we'd like to head back to upstate NY to be closer to family and to be in a lower COL area.

We didn't get on the property ladder when we should have and now are still renting while paying for childcare, saving for college, and saving for retirement. We simply cannot afford a home in the city that would guarantee good school options through high school. We hate the thought of long commutes and what that will mean for spending time with our kids. DC is increasingly expensive and we think we can have a better quality of life elsewhere. BUT I am sure I am romanticizing, and there are likely plenty of factors I am not considering. So, have you done it? Have you left for a lower COL area, and if so, what have been the pros and cons?

What is a property ladder?

Not the PP, but I’m guessing that it means constantly trading up houses to keep up with the Joneses and generate fees for RE agents.

. So a fun term for wasting money on a condo.

I mean, not really. It means buying property early on, gaining equity that you trade up for a larger or otherwise better property, and so on.

Buying a condo isn't always the smart way to get on the ladder. As many condo owners will tell you. Minimal appreciation, even underwater. And this is 10 years after the crash.

Real estate always involves luck if you see significant appreciation in a short period. Plenty of people who bought what was considered solid value investments in Potomac and Great Falls and other suburban areas are struggling to sell today what they paid 15 years ago..... But if you bought in a transitional DC neighborhood 15 years ago you've definitely made out like a bandit. But you had to be in the position to do that. Not just living in DC at the time, but willing to invest in a risky area with bad schools.

"Risky" isn't the right word. Nothing about the relative rise of DC housing prices and the relative decline of far-out places like Potomac and Great Falls was unexpected. Lots of people could have told you this was going to happen, because this is the pattern of prices virtually everywhere else in the world. The only reasons DC managed to stay so cheap for so long were its particularly violent history around desegregation and the severity of its crack epidemic in the early 90s.

The reason that more people didn't invest in DC real estate years ago is just that they didn't want to be owner occupiers in neighborhoods that hadn't yet gentrified. The writing has been on the wall for the last 15-20 years.

I'm 40. I remember when GF and Potomac were "hot" and in 2000 no one would ever expect these places to stagnant. They had great schools, the big houses the boomers liked, they fit all the trends of the time.

I also remember the transitional areas in DC. They were bad, quite bad in many areas. It was definitely a gamble to invest in those areas. You're just making a broad assumption that it was a near certainty the transitional areas would rapidly take off and become hot. In 2000 Bush had just been elected, no on ever expected the Iraq/Afghanistan wars and the trillions of defense contracting spending to be unleashed that radically changed the DC area. You're speaking with hindsight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

+1. A lot of people on this forum seem to not realize that real estate prices have climbed in many other parts of the country. It’s like they think real estate is what it was when they were growing up. Even looking at my childhood home I was shocked how much it costs now.

You can probably find a less expensive house but for real estate to truly be MUCH cheaper means the job market in that area is limited and there is limited money to push up real estate prices. Also don’t discount moving from an area with public transportation to one where people have multiple cars per family. When driving around MCOL areas I’m always shocked at how most of the cars are new and fancy. It’s like instead of spending more on real estate they spend it on cars.

All, well, most areas have seen prices go up. It's called inflation. House prices probably doubled, on average, between 1999 and 2019. But they also did the same thing between 1979 and 1999. Actually, even more. My parents bought their house in a provincial city that's not one of the "hot" cities for 52k in 1976, sold it for 208k in 1994, bought another house for 300k and just sold that house for 650k. It's inflation. It's an upper middle class suburb with good schools.

Some cities (not all, but some) have seen higher than average real estate price increases. But the vast majority of the country remains much more affordable than DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

+1. A lot of people on this forum seem to not realize that real estate prices have climbed in many other parts of the country. It’s like they think real estate is what it was when they were growing up. Even looking at my childhood home I was shocked how much it costs now.

You can probably find a less expensive house but for real estate to truly be MUCH cheaper means the job market in that area is limited and there is limited money to push up real estate prices. Also don’t discount moving from an area with public transportation to one where people have multiple cars per family. When driving around MCOL areas I’m always shocked at how most of the cars are new and fancy. It’s like instead of spending more on real estate they spend it on cars.

All, well, most areas have seen prices go up. It's called inflation. House prices probably doubled, on average, between 1999 and 2019. But they also did the same thing between 1979 and 1999. Actually, even more. My parents bought their house in a provincial city that's not one of the "hot" cities for 52k in 1976, sold it for 208k in 1994, bought another house for 300k and just sold that house for 650k. It's inflation. It's an upper middle class suburb with good schools.

Some cities (not all, but some) have seen higher than average real estate price increases. But the vast majority of the country remains much more affordable than DC.

^ totally this! I find it so weird how fatalistic people seem about living in DC - like they may as well not even explore other options because surely every place will have the same downsides and so why even bother.

there's a lot of nice places to live. lots cheaper than DC. DC is nice too but expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

+1. A lot of people on this forum seem to not realize that real estate prices have climbed in many other parts of the country. It’s like they think real estate is what it was when they were growing up. Even looking at my childhood home I was shocked how much it costs now.

You can probably find a less expensive house but for real estate to truly be MUCH cheaper means the job market in that area is limited and there is limited money to push up real estate prices. Also don’t discount moving from an area with public transportation to one where people have multiple cars per family. When driving around MCOL areas I’m always shocked at how most of the cars are new and fancy. It’s like instead of spending more on real estate they spend it on cars.

All, well, most areas have seen prices go up. It's called inflation. House prices probably doubled, on average, between 1999 and 2019. But they also did the same thing between 1979 and 1999. Actually, even more. My parents bought their house in a provincial city that's not one of the "hot" cities for 52k in 1976, sold it for 208k in 1994, bought another house for 300k and just sold that house for 650k. It's inflation. It's an upper middle class suburb with good schools.

Some cities (not all, but some) have seen higher than average real estate price increases. But the vast majority of the country remains much more affordable than DC.

^ totally this! I find it so weird how fatalistic people seem about living in DC - like they may as well not even explore other options because surely every place will have the same downsides and so why even bother.

there's a lot of nice places to live. lots cheaper than DC. DC is nice too but expensive.

Because JOBS

[Anonymous]

Smaller city?

[Anonymous]

Why is everyone who posts on here so cagey about the cities they are talking about? "I live in a west Florida city. I'm thinking down South. I looked at a cheaper state out west".

How is this helpful? Why not just say Nashville, Missoula, Bumf*ck, whatever?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

+1. A lot of people on this forum seem to not realize that real estate prices have climbed in many other parts of the country. It’s like they think real estate is what it was when they were growing up. Even looking at my childhood home I was shocked how much it costs now.

You can probably find a less expensive house but for real estate to truly be MUCH cheaper means the job market in that area is limited and there is limited money to push up real estate prices. Also don’t discount moving from an area with public transportation to one where people have multiple cars per family. When driving around MCOL areas I’m always shocked at how most of the cars are new and fancy. It’s like instead of spending more on real estate they spend it on cars.

All, well, most areas have seen prices go up. It's called inflation. House prices probably doubled, on average, between 1999 and 2019. But they also did the same thing between 1979 and 1999. Actually, even more. My parents bought their house in a provincial city that's not one of the "hot" cities for 52k in 1976, sold it for 208k in 1994, bought another house for 300k and just sold that house for 650k. It's inflation. It's an upper middle class suburb with good schools.

Some cities (not all, but some) have seen higher than average real estate price increases. But the vast majority of the country remains much more affordable than DC.

^ totally this! I find it so weird how fatalistic people seem about living in DC - like they may as well not even explore other options because surely every place will have the same downsides and so why even bother.

there's a lot of nice places to live. lots cheaper than DC. DC is nice too but expensive.

Because JOBS

There are JOBS in other places. We have a sub 4% unemployment and a booming upper middle class across most American cities.

I think a lot of people get trapped into DC because of the artificially higher salaries paying 25-40% more for the same role than in, say, Atlanta or Minneapolis and are afraid to take bite the bullet and readjust to a lower salary even with a lower cost of living offsetting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is everyone who posts on here so cagey about the cities they are talking about? "I live in a west Florida city. I'm thinking down South. I looked at a cheaper state out west".

How is this helpful? Why not just say Nashville, Missoula, Bumf*ck, whatever?

I’m the “down south” poster. I didn’t say a particular place because it’s up in the air. We’re looking at Chattanooga, Huntsville, and maybe Nashville or Atlanta. In general, we’d prefer to land in a city around the size of Chattanooga or Huntsville.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps upstate NY truly is cheaper, but be careful about assuming YOUR costs will be cheaper. I come from a western state that ostensibly is cheaper, but when I look at houses (neighborhoods) I would want to live in, the home cost is the same as here. Restaurants (decent, nothing fancy) are more expensive. Property taxes are less. Etc. We will probably retire out there, but not counting on it being cheaper.

Very valid point. I romanticized about moving out west, to Bozeman, MT, and when I looked at real estate prices, I realized it's really not that much cheaper. But where I'm from in upstate NY, I could get a nice house in a great school district for less than $200,000. I know that plenty of places are more expensive, but....200k! That's a downpayment around here.

There is also something to be said about a slower pace of life and not dealing with all of the BS that comes with our super Type A community in DC. I don't know if I can put a price on that.

+1. A lot of people on this forum seem to not realize that real estate prices have climbed in many other parts of the country. It’s like they think real estate is what it was when they were growing up. Even looking at my childhood home I was shocked how much it costs now.

You can probably find a less expensive house but for real estate to truly be MUCH cheaper means the job market in that area is limited and there is limited money to push up real estate prices. Also don’t discount moving from an area with public transportation to one where people have multiple cars per family. When driving around MCOL areas I’m always shocked at how most of the cars are new and fancy. It’s like instead of spending more on real estate they spend it on cars.

All, well, most areas have seen prices go up. It's called inflation. House prices probably doubled, on average, between 1999 and 2019. But they also did the same thing between 1979 and 1999. Actually, even more. My parents bought their house in a provincial city that's not one of the "hot" cities for 52k in 1976, sold it for 208k in 1994, bought another house for 300k and just sold that house for 650k. It's inflation. It's an upper middle class suburb with good schools.

Some cities (not all, but some) have seen higher than average real estate price increases. But the vast majority of the country remains much more affordable than DC.

^ totally this! I find it so weird how fatalistic people seem about living in DC - like they may as well not even explore other options because surely every place will have the same downsides and so why even bother.

there's a lot of nice places to live. lots cheaper than DC. DC is nice too but expensive.

Because JOBS

There are JOBS in other places. We have a sub 4% unemployment and a booming upper middle class across most American cities.

I think a lot of people get trapped into DC because of the artificially higher salaries paying 25-40% more for the same role than in, say, Atlanta or Minneapolis and are afraid to take bite the bullet and readjust to a lower salary even with a lower cost of living offsetting it.

In our case, and I know there are a lot of other people in the same situation, it's not that the same job would pay less in another place; it's that our types of jobs don't even exist anywhere else. I would love to move to Minneapolis or Omaha but I'm not really qualified to do anything there. It would take a lot of reworking of my resume to even attempt it, and with both my DH and I trying to do that, the job security just isn't there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is everyone who posts on here so cagey about the cities they are talking about? "I live in a west Florida city. I'm thinking down South. I looked at a cheaper state out west".

How is this helpful? Why not just say Nashville, Missoula, Bumf*ck, whatever?

I’m the “down south” poster. I didn’t say a particular place because it’s up in the air. We’re looking at Chattanooga, Huntsville, and maybe Nashville or Atlanta. In general, we’d prefer to land in a city around the size of Chattanooga or Huntsville.

I'm the west Florida poster - St Petersburg, is where we moved. There's actually a surprisingly sizable population of DC expats here. And I just heard the other day from another person I knew in DC who says she and her family are also considering moving here. A friend of a friend who is a former diplomat also just reached out to me to say he is thinking of moving here with his family, too.

There are not as many DC-style jobs here as there are in DC. But there are some jobs. The greater Tampa Bay area has more, still. We are a growing area - we are having a vigorous debate as to how to deal with the growing population and rising housing prices, given that it's starting to lead to long-timers being priced out, and some older buildings being replaced with bigger luxury condo towers. Also, we need public transportation. Right now it's pathetic. But our elected officials promise they are working on it. Florida public schools do not have the best reputation, either - but we know people with kids who send their kids to public, and seem happy, and there's a great scholarship program for in-state college students: https://www.sfa.ufl.edu/types-of-aid/bright-futures/florida-bright-futures-program-details/. (We don't have kids so education is not an issue for us.)

I didn't mean to be cagey earlier. I get worried sometimes about privacy - but it's probably narcissistic to think anyone would know who I am based on this sort of post (or if they do, that they'd GAF).