Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I managed to decipher, having read the MCPS letter on new HGC admission procedures. Someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will review your child's test scores and put his name on the list of kids who will be taking the gifted assessment, just based on his MAP and Inview scores; no teacher input required. Your child will, most likely, ace the test and then all bets are off for actual admission, since the test is short these days, more kids will do well on it, and the whole new system is really about 'closing the achievement gap' other than anything else. Then someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will select the attendees -- and there's a very high probability your kid will not be accepted, anyway, since the acceptance rate is so low.

My understanding is, schools have zero saying in the admission process under the new system. For a 'motivated' student, it's a drawback, for someone like your child it's an advantage. FWIW, my child is bright and 'motivated' and will, most likely, be selected for testing, but I'm not holding my breath.

Closing the achievement gap is a great thing. As long as the students are accepted on their MAP, InView and admission test scores...what is the problem? There should be no quota system or lack of transparency by MCPS. I do not care if FARMS, SPED, ESOL, AA, HI, AS, or WH students are selected, as long as it is based on the test scores. Why should teachers be giving recommendations anyways? None of them have been trained to specifically work with gifted students.

FWIW, my three kids have gone through the magnet route and one is in a magnet MS currently. They were selected not because they were Asians but because of their own merit. I am very happy if all students in MCPS were made to take these tests instead of only a few. I am confident that my children would have still gotten in the programs. And if they didn't? Then I would assume smarter kids than them got selected and rightfully so.

Why should schools, G&T programs, colleges and grad schools demand Recommendation Letters?
Because they want more than an empty suit that only knows how to sit in a closet studying and memorizing things. They want passion, maturity, motivation, something to add to the classroom.

Some of the most gifted kids we know, who cycled through some of the MCPS programs, were reading and discussing the NYtimes in third grade, did accelerated reading/writing/maths, played an instrument and competed on 1-2 travel team sports. And both their parents worked full-time in pretty impressive careers yet still made time for their kids.

In the current regime, it is not clear what they are looking for. It will not be 100% top scorers. We will never know. But we do know they don't want recommendations and they receive more federal funds to riding up average scores and closing the achievement gap. Keep filling in those charts folks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I managed to decipher, having read the MCPS letter on new HGC admission procedures. Someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will review your child's test scores and put his name on the list of kids who will be taking the gifted assessment, just based on his MAP and Inview scores; no teacher input required. Your child will, most likely, ace the test and then all bets are off for actual admission, since the test is short these days, more kids will do well on it, and the whole new system is really about 'closing the achievement gap' other than anything else. Then someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will select the attendees -- and there's a very high probability your kid will not be accepted, anyway, since the acceptance rate is so low.

My understanding is, schools have zero saying in the admission process under the new system. For a 'motivated' student, it's a drawback, for someone like your child it's an advantage. FWIW, my child is bright and 'motivated' and will, most likely, be selected for testing, but I'm not holding my breath.

The whole new system is about removing barriers to access. I support this goal.

what does that have to do with any test scores? Or are you saying that they watered down the application process so they can socially engineer the acceptances?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh please. Quit your pearl clutching. I’m sure that at some point you’ll come across one of those bratty kids and you’ll think the very same thing. Doesn’t mean the kid will end up a bratty adult. Or a terrible person. But when your kid comes home complaining about the non-motivated kid in his group who not only does not contribute, but actively disrupts the rest of the group.... you’ll think the same thing.

This happened to me, and I thought (and said), "Well, Kid, you're going to have to learn how to deal with this, and better sooner than later."

Really? You must have a pretty crappy job if your co-workers are unmotivated. I guess I’m pretty fortunate because o have a job where unmotivated people don’t get very far and I don’t really have to deal with them. I’m a scientist and pretty much everyone on my team pulls his/her weight. Or else, they can be replaced.
That’s how many adults ‘deal with it’. I certainly am not going to put in extra time and effort for an unmotivated co-worker. Are you?

How do you suggest that your kid ‘deal with it’? It’s a completely dynamic for an adult versus a child in a classroom.

Yes, you are indeed fortunate. Nonetheless, everybody -- unless they are a hermit -- has to deal with people who don't want what you want, people who take credit for your work, people who are happy to suggest work that you should do on their behalf, people who promise but don't follow through, people who procrastinate, people who prefer not to, people who like to stir the pot, people who will only do the bare minimum, and so on. Kids need to learn how to cope with such people. In fact, I think it's a life/work skill that's just as important as any technical or academic skill. Maybe even more important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I managed to decipher, having read the MCPS letter on new HGC admission procedures. Someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will review your child's test scores and put his name on the list of kids who will be taking the gifted assessment, just based on his MAP and Inview scores; no teacher input required. Your child will, most likely, ace the test and then all bets are off for actual admission, since the test is short these days, more kids will do well on it, and the whole new system is really about 'closing the achievement gap' other than anything else. Then someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will select the attendees -- and there's a very high probability your kid will not be accepted, anyway, since the acceptance rate is so low.

My understanding is, schools have zero saying in the admission process under the new system. For a 'motivated' student, it's a drawback, for someone like your child it's an advantage. FWIW, my child is bright and 'motivated' and will, most likely, be selected for testing, but I'm not holding my breath.

The whole new system is about removing barriers to access. I support this goal.

what does that have to do with any test scores? Or are you saying that they watered down the application process so they can socially engineer the acceptances?

Anything that talks about diversity/gaps etc is talking about watering down the application process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anything that talks about diversity/gaps etc is talking about watering down the application process.

This is true only if you believe that the only way to increase participation by black, Hispanic, and/or poor kids is to admit unqualified black, Hispanic, and/or poor students and exclude non-black, non-Hispanic, and/or non-poor qualified students. Do you believe that? I don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I managed to decipher, having read the MCPS letter on new HGC admission procedures. Someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will review your child's test scores and put his name on the list of kids who will be taking the gifted assessment, just based on his MAP and Inview scores; no teacher input required. Your child will, most likely, ace the test and then all bets are off for actual admission, since the test is short these days, more kids will do well on it, and the whole new system is really about 'closing the achievement gap' other than anything else. Then someone, somewhere, out there at MCPS offices, will select the attendees -- and there's a very high probability your kid will not be accepted, anyway, since the acceptance rate is so low.

My understanding is, schools have zero saying in the admission process under the new system. For a 'motivated' student, it's a drawback, for someone like your child it's an advantage. FWIW, my child is bright and 'motivated' and will, most likely, be selected for testing, but I'm not holding my breath.

The whole new system is about removing barriers to access. I support this goal.

Barriers to access? What barriers to access are there?

The information sessions are open to everyone and offered at various times. The flyers are sent home to all kids. Info is already being sent home in Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anything that talks about diversity/gaps etc is talking about watering down the application process.

This is true only if you believe that the only way to increase participation by black, Hispanic, and/or poor kids is to admit unqualified black, Hispanic, and/or poor students and exclude non-black, non-Hispanic, and/or non-poor qualified students. Do you believe that? I don't.

This is what happens in colleges and it’s trickling down to lower school levels.

The schools want to attract a certain number of AA and Latino students so they bring them in even if they are somewhat less qualified.

When I was in grad school, we had such a program. They brought in about a dozen URMs. Held a special free summer session to get the students up to speed. Offered extra financial aid. Ended up that only 3 of those students finished the program. It was fairly obvious that in the name of ‘diversity’ they were accepting students who really were not qualified to be there.

[Anonymous]

I don't remember where I saw the stats (I believe they were posted on this board), but MCPS increased the number of seats in the center program so dramatically this year that the numbers increased for every single subgroup. Yes, there are more URMs in the program this year, but there are also more whites and Asians than were admitted last year. There are more FARMs students and more who aren't part of the FARMs group. There are more children with IEPs and 504s, but there are also more kids without IEPs and 504s. Everybody's odds of being accepted increased. The number of previously underrepresented subgroups did not increase at anyone else's expense. I think a full 5% of this year's 4th graders were accepted, which is about 10% of the children who were chosen for the gifted testing last year in 3rd grade. People complain that the county doesn't give this opportunity to enough gifted children. Other people complain that the program has been "watered down" when more children are accepted. No matter what MCPS does, someone will find fault.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Barriers to access? What barriers to access are there?

The information sessions are open to everyone and offered at various times. The flyers are sent home to all kids. Info is already being sent home in Spanish.

Here is some reading for you: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/info/choice/ChoiceStudyReport-Version2-20160307.pdf

If you're interested in any of the MCPS special programs, you really ought to read the whole thing. MCPS is going to make a lot of changes based on this report, so if you don't read it, you won't understand what's happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anything that talks about diversity/gaps etc is talking about watering down the application process.

This is true only if you believe that the only way to increase participation by black, Hispanic, and/or poor kids is to admit unqualified black, Hispanic, and/or poor students and exclude non-black, non-Hispanic, and/or non-poor qualified students. Do you believe that? I don't.

This is what happens in colleges and it’s trickling down to lower school levels.

The schools want to attract a certain number of AA and Latino students so they bring them in even if they are somewhat less qualified.

When I was in grad school, we had such a program. They brought in about a dozen URMs. Held a special free summer session to get the students up to speed. Offered extra financial aid. Ended up that only 3 of those students finished the program. It was fairly obvious that in the name of ‘diversity’ they were accepting students who really were not qualified to be there.

I posted this but I also want to be clear that I do not think that AA and Latino students are less qualified as a whole. My point is more than when the focus goes to ‘increasing diversity’ or ‘closing the achievement gap’ then often times programs end up letting in less qualified students to fulfill that requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't remember where I saw the stats (I believe they were posted on this board), but MCPS increased the number of seats in the center program so dramatically this year that the numbers increased for every single subgroup. Yes, there are more URMs in the program this year, but there are also more whites and Asians than were admitted last year. There are more FARMs students and more who aren't part of the FARMs group. There are more children with IEPs and 504s, but there are also more kids without IEPs and 504s. Everybody's odds of being accepted increased. The number of previously underrepresented subgroups did not increase at anyone else's expense. I think a full 5% of this year's 4th graders were accepted, which is about 10% of the children who were chosen for the gifted testing last year in 3rd grade. People complain that the county doesn't give this opportunity to enough gifted children. Other people complain that the program has been "watered down" when more children are accepted. No matter what MCPS does, someone will find fault.

Barnsely HGC was already huge. If they increased it there, I hope they added a whole class and not just seats in the existing classes. Class would be huge.

I think you are talking about the pilot program in some of the ESs where they are creating "centers" within the school rather than sending the kids off to a different HGC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anything that talks about diversity/gaps etc is talking about watering down the application process.

This is true only if you believe that the only way to increase participation by black, Hispanic, and/or poor kids is to admit unqualified black, Hispanic, and/or poor students and exclude non-black, non-Hispanic, and/or non-poor qualified students. Do you believe that? I don't.

This is what happens in colleges and it’s trickling down to lower school levels.

The schools want to attract a certain number of AA and Latino students so they bring them in even if they are somewhat less qualified.

When I was in grad school, we had such a program. They brought in about a dozen URMs. Held a special free summer session to get the students up to speed. Offered extra financial aid. Ended up that only 3 of those students finished the program. It was fairly obvious that in the name of ‘diversity’ they were accepting students who really were not qualified to be there.

I posted this but I also want to be clear that I do not think that AA and Latino students are less qualified as a whole. My point is more than when the focus goes to ‘increasing diversity’ or ‘closing the achievement gap’ then often times programs end up letting in less qualified students to fulfill that requirement.

this is the inconvenient truth. There are many ways to help URM students to achieve higher, but the school systems often don't want to take the hard road. watering down (changing the grading system, adding more holistic factors in special program admission, ...) is the easiest and quickest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't remember where I saw the stats (I believe they were posted on this board), but MCPS increased the number of seats in the center program so dramatically this year that the numbers increased for every single subgroup. Yes, there are more URMs in the program this year, but there are also more whites and Asians than were admitted last year. There are more FARMs students and more who aren't part of the FARMs group. There are more children with IEPs and 504s, but there are also more kids without IEPs and 504s. Everybody's odds of being accepted increased. The number of previously underrepresented subgroups did not increase at anyone else's expense. I think a full 5% of this year's 4th graders were accepted, which is about 10% of the children who were chosen for the gifted testing last year in 3rd grade. People complain that the county doesn't give this opportunity to enough gifted children. Other people complain that the program has been "watered down" when more children are accepted. No matter what MCPS does, someone will find fault.

I agree -- people have been complaining for years about how so few kids get accepted into HGC -- the county has done something about that. Yet people are still complaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't remember where I saw the stats (I believe they were posted on this board), but MCPS increased the number of seats in the center program so dramatically this year that the numbers increased for every single subgroup. Yes, there are more URMs in the program this year, but there are also more whites and Asians than were admitted last year. There are more FARMs students and more who aren't part of the FARMs group. There are more children with IEPs and 504s, but there are also more kids without IEPs and 504s. Everybody's odds of being accepted increased. The number of previously underrepresented subgroups did not increase at anyone else's expense. I think a full 5% of this year's 4th graders were accepted, which is about 10% of the children who were chosen for the gifted testing last year in 3rd grade. People complain that the county doesn't give this opportunity to enough gifted children. Other people complain that the program has been "watered down" when more children are accepted. No matter what MCPS does, someone will find fault.

Barnsely HGC was already huge. If they increased it there, I hope they added a whole class and not just seats in the existing classes. Class would be huge.

I think you are talking about the pilot program in some of the ESs where they are creating "centers" within the school rather than sending the kids off to a different HGC.

Yes, the pilot program is responsible for opening many more seats, but i believe that those 4 schools with new local centers are not sending any children to the regional centers, which in turn opens up some additional spots for children at all the other schools.

[Anonymous]

Because of the way they did that. They could have easily, with the same amount of money or less, increased the number of seats at the main centers.

Instead, they purposely chose to do pilot programs at schools that do not reflect the demographics of MCPS and where URMs are overrepresented. But this wasn't enough. They also had to change the admissions criteria so the test isn't the same as what was given to the rest of the students in the county in the past. But this wasn't enough either. So they had to add other criteria for selection beyond the tests and made them pretty vague.

At some point after trying to pull this lever and that lever they found a formula that would result in a higher percentage of URMs admitted and enrolled.

Don't kid yourself about what's going on. IMO I think the county should take more of its money and put it into after school, tutoring and enrichment programs for all FARMS children and those at Title I schools. I would even be for reducing the seats at the HGCs (because really how many of the kids actually NEED the program) if the money could be used instead to target those children who are disadvantaged from a socieoeconomic standpoint but show high intellectual ability or motivation.