Converting to Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. Can non-Jewish people attend services?

Yes. You are welcome to do so, in general.

I do remind you that we have denominations, and they are very different.

I don't like the term "denominations" It sounds so, pardon, Protestant, and seems to imply not only differences in theology, but differences in liturgy going back 500 years, and even formal distinctions on who can participate, intermarry etc (depending on whether denominations are in communion with each other). I like the idea that there are no hard and set boundaries along the continuum of Judaism - Reform and Conservative accept each other for most if not all purposes, and there are independent shuls happily in between. Same for Conservative and at least the most liberal Orthodox shuls. Denominationalism has set in more strongly in recent years, esp as CJ has moved left halachically, O has moved right and groups like Open Orthodoxy and the Union for Traditional Judaism have remained small. Though the liturgy is less denominational, as even Reform has become more traditional. (Note there are also smaller groups, Reconstructionist and Renewal notably). But I prefer to call them movements, or, as the Israelis do, "trends". Reform and Conservative each have a grouping of institutions (synagogue associations, seminaries, youth movements, etc) but many of the most exciting things are happening with independent institutions and prayer groups.

There are a lot of words in this answer. Call them flavors, trends, denominations... whatever. For the PP who asked, you will find services extremely different among the "groups". I just reread the first sentence PP wrote, and other than the fact that our differences don't go back quite as far as Luther, I think we meet the standard she set.

Well other than that a Reform Jew can walk into an Orthodox Synagogue and be called to the Torah - not questions about who is in communion with whom. A Reform Jew (heck a pair of Reform Jews) can be married under the supervision of an Orthodox rabbi, no asking for them to "convert" to Orthodoxy, as when a Protestant marries a Roman Catholic.

For more on the growing tendency to ignore denominations, see the independent day schools movement, independent rabbinical seminaries, the indepedent minyan movement (and its lead educational institution, Yeshiva Hadar), etc, etc.

That is true for less than 50 percent of Reform Jews, since women are not called to the Torah at all. Then take away all those who were converted by a non-Orthodox rabbi...

I think, for the purposes of the OP (who asked a perfectly reasonable question), you might be arguing for to-MAH-toes when the rest of us are fine with tomatoes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between being Jewish and not being Jewish, is that as a Jew, you are obligated in 613 commandments, as opposed to only 7 Noachide laws that all people are obligated in.
A conversion that is acceptable by all is one where the convert takes upon himself/herself obligation to adhere to Jewish law and keep all the 613.
Before taking on such an obligation, one must be fully aware of what the obligation is, and one must be sincere in accepting this obligation.
One can be a great person, and a great friend without obligation to the 613.
If one is serious about this obligation, then circumcision, for a man, is just one of those 613. Frankly, keeping the laws of Sabbath, or pure speech are much harder, as they are ongoing, as opposed to the"one and done" circumcision. And yes, I am a woman. (With two circumcised sons).

Can a person convert and then become a nominal jew? Will the conversion come under suspicion if that happens?

If Orthodox, yes, it absolutely will. Even worse, all the other conversions done by that beis din may then be questioned, so your selfish actions could ruin someone else's life. The Rabbanut in Israel has used circumstances exactly like these to possul (negate) thousands of other conversions done by the suspect rabbis, some going back years. People who thought they were Jewish and had been living Orthodox lives suddenly had their identity taken away from them and had to re-convert, or become converts (if their mother's conversion was nullified). And actions such as the one you are proposing cast doubt on all the sincere converts and make life more difficult for them, having to constantly prove themselves to establish that they aren't just fakers like you who treat the whole thing as a joke and throw it off when no one is looking.

Just don't do it. If you want to be Jewish, then learn how and be Jewish. If you don't want, then don't fake it. If you are in a relationship where you think this is necessary, think about whether that's really going to be a successful pairing if you don't agree on the same values and think about the impact your hoodwinking of a beis din might have on others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between being Jewish and not being Jewish, is that as a Jew, you are obligated in 613 commandments, as opposed to only 7 Noachide laws that all people are obligated in.
A conversion that is acceptable by all is one where the convert takes upon himself/herself obligation to adhere to Jewish law and keep all the 613.
Before taking on such an obligation, one must be fully aware of what the obligation is, and one must be sincere in accepting this obligation.
One can be a great person, and a great friend without obligation to the 613.
If one is serious about this obligation, then circumcision, for a man, is just one of those 613. Frankly, keeping the laws of Sabbath, or pure speech are much harder, as they are ongoing, as opposed to the"one and done" circumcision. And yes, I am a woman. (With two circumcised sons).

Can a person convert and then become a nominal jew? Will the conversion come under suspicion if that happens?

Why would you do that?
If you are interested in marriage to a jew, and they are serious about their Judaism, then they'll expect a Jewish household that adheres to Jewish law. If they are not serious about their Judaism, then insisting that their spouse convert is hypocritical.
Don't convert just to appease someone. Don't change just to please someone else.

FYI, in addition to people who are not serious in their Judaism who still insist a spouse convert, there are a LOT of people who ARE serious about their Judaism who either don't consider the mitzvot as binding (many Reform and Recon serious humanist Jews) or who accept that people simply aren't going to keep all mitzvot without making that big a deal about it (a few Reform, most Conservative, even a few who consider themselves Orthodox)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
That is true for less than 50 percent of Reform Jews, since women are not called to the Torah at all. Then take away all those who were converted by a non-Orthodox rabbi...

I think, for the purposes of the OP (who asked a perfectly reasonable question), you might be arguing for to-MAH-toes when the rest of us are fine with tomatoes.

Well the exclusion of Reform females from being called for an aliyah, also applies to Orthodox females, and thus does not confirm "denominationalism" In general whatever an Orthodox female can do in synagogue in terms of ritual leadership a Reform female can do (though I imagine at those modern O shuls that allow a female to give a dvar torah, they might be reluctant to have anyone who did not have an O education do so)

As for the issue of conversions, that is, in general one area where we tend to denominationalism. Though again, only between the O and others. Conservative rabbis lean over to accept Reform conversions, and of course Reform AFAIK always accepts C and O conversions. Not sure if any Open Orthodox will accept a Conservative conversion that was done by an all male bet din and in other ways was ritually correct, or would reject it solely because of the heretical status of the rabbis on the bet din.

[Anonymous]

The circumsim is a bitch

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between being Jewish and not being Jewish, is that as a Jew, you are obligated in 613 commandments, as opposed to only 7 Noachide laws that all people are obligated in.
A conversion that is acceptable by all is one where the convert takes upon himself/herself obligation to adhere to Jewish law and keep all the 613.
Before taking on such an obligation, one must be fully aware of what the obligation is, and one must be sincere in accepting this obligation.
One can be a great person, and a great friend without obligation to the 613.
If one is serious about this obligation, then circumcision, for a man, is just one of those 613. Frankly, keeping the laws of Sabbath, or pure speech are much harder, as they are ongoing, as opposed to the"one and done" circumcision. And yes, I am a woman. (With two circumcised sons).

Can a person convert and then become a nominal jew? Will the conversion come under suspicion if that happens?

If Orthodox, yes, it absolutely will. Even worse, all the other conversions done by that beis din may then be questioned, so your selfish actions could ruin someone else's life. The Rabbanut in Israel has used circumstances exactly like these to possul (negate) thousands of other conversions done by the suspect rabbis, some going back years. People who thought they were Jewish and had been living Orthodox lives suddenly had their identity taken away from them and had to re-convert, or become converts (if their mother's conversion was nullified). And actions such as the one you are proposing cast doubt on all the sincere converts and make life more difficult for them, having to constantly prove themselves to establish that they aren't just fakers like you who treat the whole thing as a joke and throw it off when no one is looking.

Just don't do it. If you want to be Jewish, then learn how and be Jewish. If you don't want, then don't fake it. If you are in a relationship where you think this is necessary, think about whether that's really going to be a successful pairing if you don't agree on the same values and think about the impact your hoodwinking of a beis din might have on others.

Think about successful pairing?
What is that?

I ask because I know of one rumor about jewish people visiting a convert without a call or text first and opening the refridgerator door to see what is inside

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Traditionally, there is no reason to try to convert others. Jews believe there are certain rules and laws they need to follow to be good Jews. They believe there are certain moral imperatives you need to follow to be a good person. But, there's no spiritual or practical advantage to following Jewish practice if you aren't Jewish.

Unless you marry someone jewish, then you have to convert
The grandparents want jewish grandchildren, and unless you convert they will not be

This is not true in Reform Judaism. If one parent is Jewish, and the children are raised Jewish, they are considered Jewish.

Correct. I'm a non-Jewish mother to two Jewish children this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Traditionally, there is no reason to try to convert others. Jews believe there are certain rules and laws they need to follow to be good Jews. They believe there are certain moral imperatives you need to follow to be a good person. But, there's no spiritual or practical advantage to following Jewish practice if you aren't Jewish.

Unless you marry someone jewish, then you have to convert
The grandparents want jewish grandchildren, and unless you convert they will not be

In my experience conversions are generally regarded skeptically by all but the most liberal reform Jews. It is often women converting because they are marrying a Jewish male. Judaism is matrilineal, which means if your mother is Jewish you are considered Jewish by birth, regardless of the father's religion. Those with a Jewish grandparent might be accepted but most Christian conversions will be considered questionable for at least the first generation, even if no one is saying so out loud. Converts seldom continue after a divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Traditionally, there is no reason to try to convert others. Jews believe there are certain rules and laws they need to follow to be good Jews. They believe there are certain moral imperatives you need to follow to be a good person. But, there's no spiritual or practical advantage to following Jewish practice if you aren't Jewish.

Unless you marry someone jewish, then you have to convert
The grandparents want jewish grandchildren, and unless you convert they will not be

In my experience conversions are generally regarded skeptically by all but the most liberal reform Jews. It is often women converting because they are marrying a Jewish male. Judaism is matrilineal, which means if your mother is Jewish you are considered Jewish by birth, regardless of the father's religion. Those with a Jewish grandparent might be accepted but most Christian conversions will be considered questionable for at least the first generation, even if no one is saying so out loud. Converts seldom continue after a divorce.

Converts are seldom welcome after a divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Traditionally, there is no reason to try to convert others. Jews believe there are certain rules and laws they need to follow to be good Jews. They believe there are certain moral imperatives you need to follow to be a good person. But, there's no spiritual or practical advantage to following Jewish practice if you aren't Jewish.

Unless you marry someone jewish, then you have to convert
The grandparents want jewish grandchildren, and unless you convert they will not be

In my experience conversions are generally regarded skeptically by all but the most liberal reform Jews. It is often women converting because they are marrying a Jewish male. Judaism is matrilineal, which means if your mother is Jewish you are considered Jewish by birth, regardless of the father's religion. Those with a Jewish grandparent might be accepted but most Christian conversions will be considered questionable for at least the first generation, even if no one is saying so out loud. Converts seldom continue after a divorce.

Converts are seldom welcome after a divorce.

I don't think that's true. In fact I know of several specific people where it is not true.

Though I also disagree with the PP who said people are regarded skeptically. If someone is active in a congregation, is learning, is involved with Jewish life, I see no skepticism in mainstream Conservative congregations. At least in the DC area, those almost all have plenty of converts. I also know a Reform rabbi who was a convert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Traditionally, there is no reason to try to convert others. Jews believe there are certain rules and laws they need to follow to be good Jews. They believe there are certain moral imperatives you need to follow to be a good person. But, there's no spiritual or practical advantage to following Jewish practice if you aren't Jewish.

Unless you marry someone jewish, then you have to convert
The grandparents want jewish grandchildren, and unless you convert they will not be

In my experience conversions are generally regarded skeptically by all but the most liberal reform Jews. It is often women converting because they are marrying a Jewish male. Judaism is matrilineal, which means if your mother is Jewish you are considered Jewish by birth, regardless of the father's religion. Those with a Jewish grandparent might be accepted but most Christian conversions will be considered questionable for at least the first generation, even if no one is saying so out loud. Converts seldom continue after a divorce.

This was the exact opposite of my experience of an Orthodox conversion. Orthodox Jews know and follow halacha, and for them people who comply with the rules are Jews in good standing because Judaism is very much about halacha. It's rather like someone's view of a complex legal contract --- lawyers will understand it know when the other party is in compliance. Non-lawyers will form opinions based on half understood things they read or heard second hand, or based on emotion or other non-contractual factors. Note that I'm not trying to denigrate the official teachings of Reform or Conservative Judaism, but more talking about the how people with different levels of understanding of halacha form opinions about it.

Also, when you see people in shul not only on Shabbat but on holidays and every Monday and Thursday and whenever someone needs a minyan, they have a pretty clear sense that you are sincere. Also, when you wear a kippah every day in a majority Christian country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Traditionally, there is no reason to try to convert others. Jews believe there are certain rules and laws they need to follow to be good Jews. They believe there are certain moral imperatives you need to follow to be a good person. But, there's no spiritual or practical advantage to following Jewish practice if you aren't Jewish.

Unless you marry someone jewish, then you have to convert
The grandparents want jewish grandchildren, and unless you convert they will not be

In my experience conversions are generally regarded skeptically by all but the most liberal reform Jews. It is often women converting because they are marrying a Jewish male. Judaism is matrilineal, which means if your mother is Jewish you are considered Jewish by birth, regardless of the father's religion. Those with a Jewish grandparent might be accepted but most Christian conversions will be considered questionable for at least the first generation, even if no one is saying so out loud. Converts seldom continue after a divorce.

This was the exact opposite of my experience of an Orthodox conversion. Orthodox Jews know and follow halacha, and for them people who comply with the rules are Jews in good standing because Judaism is very much about halacha. It's rather like someone's view of a complex legal contract --- lawyers will understand it know when the other party is in compliance. Non-lawyers will form opinions based on half understood things they read or heard second hand, or based on emotion or other non-contractual factors. Note that I'm not trying to denigrate the official teachings of Reform or Conservative Judaism, but more talking about the how people with different levels of understanding of halacha form opinions about it.

Also, when you see people in shul not only on Shabbat but on holidays and every Monday and Thursday and whenever someone needs a minyan, they have a pretty clear sense that you are sincere. Also, when you wear a kippah every day in a majority Christian country.

While its true that Orthodox knowledge of and practice of halacha leads to greater acceptance of converts, the sheer numbers of converts (and unconverted intermarriage partners) in Conservative and esp Reform shuls tends to offset the tendency to "ethnicize" Jewish identity there, in my experience. I suspect the worst problems of exclusion are from nominal C and R Jews who are not involved in their congregations enough to know how many converts there are, or who live in places dominated by the elderly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. Can non-Jewish people attend services?

Yes, although keep in mind that for certain services (primarily the high holidays -- Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) you need tickets, and they are very expensive for non-members. Also keep in mind that, particularly outside of reform congregations, much of the service will be incomprehensible to someone who doesn't know Hebrew. Conservative congregations tend to have 95-100% of the services in Hebrew. Reform congregations will have more English, but the core part of the service--the reading of the Torah portion for the week and the accompanying prayers--will be in Hebrew.

Regarding the conversion point: you can convert, and a reform and likely conservative congregation should facilitate that. It's a long process, though, like many have said. Also keep in mind that some (if not actually many) Jews will not consider you fully Jewish just because you converted. There's an ethnic component to Judaism and obviously you can't acquire that. So before converting, I'd be sure to find a congregation that would be welcoming of converts without any Jewish ancestry. Like others have said, you're very likely to get nowhere--and may encounter hostility--if you approach an Orthodox congregation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. Can non-Jewish people attend services?

Yes, although keep in mind that for certain services (primarily the high holidays -- Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) you need tickets, and they are very expensive for non-members. Also keep in mind that, particularly outside of reform congregations, much of the service will be incomprehensible to someone who doesn't know Hebrew. Conservative congregations tend to have 95-100% of the services in Hebrew. Reform congregations will have more English, but the core part of the service--the reading of the Torah portion for the week and the accompanying prayers--will be in Hebrew.

Regarding the conversion point: you can convert, and a reform and likely conservative congregation should facilitate that. It's a long process, though, like many have said. Also keep in mind that some (if not actually many) Jews will not consider you fully Jewish just because you converted. There's an ethnic component to Judaism and obviously you can't acquire that. So before converting, I'd be sure to find a congregation that would be welcoming of converts without any Jewish ancestry. Like others have said, you're very likely to get nowhere--and may encounter hostility--if you approach an Orthodox congregation.

1. You can definitely acquire some of the cultural components of Jewish (often we mean Ashkenazi) identity - I know a convert who cooks great Jewish food, is totally paranoid about antisemites, etc, though she doesn't know Yiddish. Lets just say it varies.
2. There are definitely people who have converted under Orthodox auspices. If THAT is the form of Judaism that appeals to you, go for it. If not, don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. Can non-Jewish people attend services?

Absolutely! I'm Jewish; DH isn't. He attends services with us, and at this point, fully participates (as much as he's comfortable).

My husband also attends. There are restrictions at my shul about non-Jews leading certain prayers, but other than that, they are completely welcome.

Yes! No rules against that. I don't know what your reasons are (but I assume good ones) so you might want to give the rabbi a call to talk about it. Some aren't more accessible than others. Some weeks have special events that are more or less fun.