Converting to Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

Because Jews are not a "faith" they are a people. In fact a family. The descendants of Abraham. To whom (according to traditional Judaism) God gave a particular set of laws to follow. So they are obligated to keep those laws, and others are not (non Jews are instead obligated to follow the commandments given to Noah, the father of all mankind). But (again traditionally ) some people have souls that are part of the Jewish people, but got born into the wrong bodies. Conversion is for them. You know if you are one of them by the way Judaism appeals to you.

Note, historically, Jews did sometimes proselytize. But this was banned by Christian and Muslim authorities, and Jews internalized this. A few years ago a leader of the Reform movement called for Jews to proselytize again, but that was controversial, even within Reform.

Does the bolded mean that Jews believe in reincarnation?

Note necessarily. You don't need to be reborn, you just convert. OTOH a few Jewish groups here and there have believed in it, IIUC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

There are probably a lot of reasons for this but a big one is that Jews were persecuted for centuries and proselytizing would have been asking for trouble. Jews were just hoping for live and let live.

An Orthodox temple will accept converts (assuming you are sincere) (although they may not accept conversion performed by a non-Orthodox rabbi).

There are no Orthodox "temples." A temple is a holy place. There have only been three Orthodox temples, the first and the second temples in Jerusalem and the temple in Elephantine. The Reform reject this idea and say that any building devoted to Jewish prayer is a temple.

1. Presumably the Temple in Elephantine was in violation of Deuteronomy as well. 2. Its kind of anachronistic to refer to the Beit Hamikdash harishon or hasheni as "orthodox" since the term originated in the 19th century. 3. As a side note, in part of the northeastern US some conservative synagogues used (and still use) the term "temple" even though (unlike Reform) they pray for the restoration of the ancient temple in Jerusalem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the son of a Jewish father and a Protestant mother. We attended a Reform synagogue. At that time, Reform still held to the belief that one must have a Jewish mother to be Jewish, but our congregation accepted me anyways. Reform has since changed its rules about this and it remains a hotly debated issue among the Conservatives. When I went to college, many would not accept me as Jewish, so I converted under Orthodox auspices. They had to draw blood from my already circumcised penis, and I had to dunk myself in the Mikveh of Manhattan.

Really? This is fascinating, but sad that people wouldn't accept you as Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Orthodox don't recognize Reform or Conservative conversions so Israel will not accept one converted by a Reform or Conservative rabbi to be eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.

That is not QUITE true. In the past the Ministry of Absorption did accept conversions performed by C and R rabbis OUTSIDE Israel (nothing done by a C or R rabbi INSIDE Israel has any recognition by the State) but IIUC in more recent times the Chief Rabbinate has been given more authority over that, and this has resulted in years of tussle about the recognition of overseas conversions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Orthodox don't recognize Reform or Conservative conversions so Israel will not accept one converted by a Reform or Conservative rabbi to be eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.

I don't think this is true. The Law of Return is based on the Nuremberg Laws of the Nazis, not on halacha. Basically the goal was to give a place of refuge to those who might be persecuted for a Jewish affiliation. So as of right now (there is a proposal to change it to what you say), it includes non-Jewish spouses, Reform converts, etc. So they would be allowed by the Interior Ministry to move to Israel and get Israeli citizenship. However, they would not be recognized as Jews by the Rabbanut, which controls marriage and divorce.

This is not correct either. The Law of Return gives the right of return to any Halachic Jew, PLUS anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent. That is the impact of the Nuremberg laws, which persecuted those of Jewish ancestry, even if their origin was only in the male line (so not halachically Jewish). It does not give any rights to non Jewish spouses, or any unrecognized converts (though again, at times in the past non O converts WERE recognized).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the son of a Jewish father and a Protestant mother. We attended a Reform synagogue. At that time, Reform still held to the belief that one must have a Jewish mother to be Jewish, but our congregation accepted me anyways. Reform has since changed its rules about this and it remains a hotly debated issue among the Conservatives. When I went to college, many would not accept me as Jewish, so I converted under Orthodox auspices. They had to draw blood from my already circumcised penis, and I had to dunk myself in the Mikveh of Manhattan.

Really? This is fascinating, but sad that people wouldn't accept you as Jewish.

Why is it sad? Under traditional Jewish law, the PP was NOT Jewish. I understand why Reform made the changes it did, but I don't think its sad that others with a different of the meaning and status of traditional Jewish law did not accept those changes. (note, not accepting them as a Jew, does not mean they did not accept PP as a friend, who someone with a spiritual search and a desire to become Jewish - only PP can tell us if they did the latter, I hope they did so)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I converted to Judaism with a Reform rabbi after I married.
I took classes at the JCC and through other groups for several years before I made the decision.
(Side note: our rabbi told me my conversion certificate might not be valid in Israel. That's ok, not planning to move there.)

If Israel doesn't recognize you and other converts as Jewish, then it seems like converting to Judaism wouldn't make a convert an official Jew. Jewish in practice, but Israel will not welcome you as a Jew. It makes me wonder what is the point of conversion if Israel rejects converts. Is there an official conversion that Israel will accept or is a very strict law as to who is and who is not a Jew according to Israel? So, all the things that folks go through to convert to Judaism only means something here in America, but in Israel a convert will still be considered a Gentile?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the son of a Jewish father and a Protestant mother. We attended a Reform synagogue. At that time, Reform still held to the belief that one must have a Jewish mother to be Jewish, but our congregation accepted me anyways. Reform has since changed its rules about this and it remains a hotly debated issue among the Conservatives. When I went to college, many would not accept me as Jewish, so I converted under Orthodox auspices. They had to draw blood from my already circumcised penis, and I had to dunk myself in the Mikveh of Manhattan.

Really? This is fascinating, but sad that people wouldn't accept you as Jewish.

Why is it sad? Under traditional Jewish law, the PP was NOT Jewish. I understand why Reform made the changes it did, but I don't think its sad that others with a different of the meaning and status of traditional Jewish law did not accept those changes. (note, not accepting them as a Jew, does not mean they did not accept PP as a friend, who someone with a spiritual search and a desire to become Jewish - only PP can tell us if they did the latter, I hope they did so)

It's sad because this man had to go through great lengths to get accepted. It seems sad to have to endure some type of initiation in order for people to accept you as fully Jewish when his father was a Jew and he was raised a Jew. It seems like Jews are not as accepting of people as other faiths are. I know all religions and faiths have traditions to follow, but becoming a Jew is not for the faint at heart. I respect the Jewish tradition, but withdrawing blood from a guy's penis seems extreme.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. Can non-Jewish people attend services?

Yes. You are welcome to do so, in general.

I do remind you that we have denominations, and they are very different.

[Anonymous]

If you are serious about conversion see: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Making-the-case-for-the-Chief-Rabbinate-501088

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I converted to Judaism with a Reform rabbi after I married.
I took classes at the JCC and through other groups for several years before I made the decision.
(Side note: our rabbi told me my conversion certificate might not be valid in Israel. That's ok, not planning to move there.)

If Israel doesn't recognize you and other converts as Jewish, then it seems like converting to Judaism wouldn't make a convert an official Jew. Jewish in practice, but Israel will not welcome you as a Jew. It makes me wonder what is the point of conversion if Israel rejects converts. Is there an official conversion that Israel will accept or is a very strict law as to who is and who is not a Jew according to Israel? So, all the things that folks go through to convert to Judaism only means something here in America, but in Israel a convert will still be considered a Gentile?

Israel accepts (in general) Orthodox conversions.

Israel is not the only issue. Conservative and Reform synagogues accept non Orthodox conversions, so it matters for marriages, synagogue participation, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the son of a Jewish father and a Protestant mother. We attended a Reform synagogue. At that time, Reform still held to the belief that one must have a Jewish mother to be Jewish, but our congregation accepted me anyways. Reform has since changed its rules about this and it remains a hotly debated issue among the Conservatives. When I went to college, many would not accept me as Jewish, so I converted under Orthodox auspices. They had to draw blood from my already circumcised penis, and I had to dunk myself in the Mikveh of Manhattan.

Really? This is fascinating, but sad that people wouldn't accept you as Jewish.

Why is it sad? Under traditional Jewish law, the PP was NOT Jewish. I understand why Reform made the changes it did, but I don't think its sad that others with a different of the meaning and status of traditional Jewish law did not accept those changes. (note, not accepting them as a Jew, does not mean they did not accept PP as a friend, who someone with a spiritual search and a desire to become Jewish - only PP can tell us if they did the latter, I hope they did so)

It's sad because this man had to go through great lengths to get accepted. It seems sad to have to endure some type of initiation in order for people to accept you as fully Jewish when his father was a Jew and he was raised a Jew. It seems like Jews are not as accepting of people as other faiths are. I know all religions and faiths have traditions to follow, but becoming a Jew is not for the faint at heart. I respect the Jewish tradition, but withdrawing blood from a guy's penis seems extreme.

On the contrary, from our POV, Judaism is MORE accepting. If your mother was a Jew, then you are a Jew, even if you are a loud obnoxious atheist, which is not true for other faiths. You are simply looking at it from the point of view of being a Christian or Muslim - which is to say the adherent of a religion. Being a Jew is (according to the religion) being a member of a PEOPLE. Its not just about what you adhere to. And its not just tradition - to Orthodox, Conservative, and some Reform, its a matter of religious law. You also seem hung up the word "accept" and "accepting" My synagogue has gays, transgenders, people with disabilities, of all colors, who participate fully. We also have quite a few nonJews (in intermarriages) who participate fully in the social life of the congregation. Determining "who is a Jew" is a specific matter of Jewish law and ritual, its not about personal acceptance.

As for drawing blood, that is simply the ritual substitute for circumcision, which is part of conversion for males for over 2000 years. Again, it seems like a big deal because the winners of history decided that was unnecessary.

Being an observant Jew makes one much more aware of how certain culturally bound POVs are privileged (and for me, has made me more sympathetic to Muslims, gays, etc, though sadly that is not true for all observant Jews)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the son of a Jewish father and a Protestant mother. We attended a Reform synagogue. At that time, Reform still held to the belief that one must have a Jewish mother to be Jewish, but our congregation accepted me anyways. Reform has since changed its rules about this and it remains a hotly debated issue among the Conservatives. When I went to college, many would not accept me as Jewish, so I converted under Orthodox auspices. They had to draw blood from my already circumcised penis, and I had to dunk myself in the Mikveh of Manhattan.

Really? This is fascinating, but sad that people wouldn't accept you as Jewish.

Why is it sad? Under traditional Jewish law, the PP was NOT Jewish. I understand why Reform made the changes it did, but I don't think its sad that others with a different of the meaning and status of traditional Jewish law did not accept those changes. (note, not accepting them as a Jew, does not mean they did not accept PP as a friend, who someone with a spiritual search and a desire to become Jewish - only PP can tell us if they did the latter, I hope they did so)

It's sad because this man had to go through great lengths to get accepted. It seems sad to have to endure some type of initiation in order for people to accept you as fully Jewish when his father was a Jew and he was raised a Jew. It seems like Jews are not as accepting of people as other faiths are. I know all religions and faiths have traditions to follow, but becoming a Jew is not for the faint at heart. I respect the Jewish tradition, but withdrawing blood from a guy's penis seems extreme.

On the contrary, from our POV, Judaism is MORE accepting. If your mother was a Jew, then you are a Jew, even if you are a loud obnoxious atheist, which is not true for other faiths. You are simply looking at it from the point of view of being a Christian or Muslim - which is to say the adherent of a religion. Being a Jew is (according to the religion) being a member of a PEOPLE. Its not just about what you adhere to. And its not just tradition - to Orthodox, Conservative, and some Reform, its a matter of religious law. You also seem hung up the word "accept" and "accepting" My synagogue has gays, transgenders, people with disabilities, of all colors, who participate fully. We also have quite a few nonJews (in intermarriages) who participate fully in the social life of the congregation. Determining "who is a Jew" is a specific matter of Jewish law and ritual, its not about personal acceptance.

As for drawing blood, that is simply the ritual substitute for circumcision, which is part of conversion for males for over 2000 years. Again, it seems like a big deal because the winners of history decided that was unnecessary.

Being an observant Jew makes one much more aware of how certain culturally bound POVs are privileged (and for me, has made me more sympathetic to Muslims, gays, etc, though sadly that is not true for all observant Jews)

Thank you for your clarity. I wasn't trying to offend, but I wanted a better understanding. Thanks for having the patience to assist me with my inquiries. By the way, what synagogue do you attend? Are visitors welcome?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed that Judaism is the only Abrahamic faith that doesn't proselytize. I think that's cool. Why is it that Judaism doesn't proselytize though?

There are probably a lot of reasons for this but a big one is that Jews were persecuted for centuries and proselytizing would have been asking for trouble. Jews were just hoping for live and let live.

An Orthodox temple will accept converts (assuming you are sincere) (although they may not accept conversion performed by a non-Orthodox rabbi).

There are no Orthodox "temples." A temple is a holy place. There have only been three Orthodox temples, the first and the second temples in Jerusalem and the temple in Elephantine. The Reform reject this idea and say that any building devoted to Jewish prayer is a temple.

1. Presumably the Temple in Elephantine was in violation of Deuteronomy as well. 2. Its kind of anachronistic to refer to the Beit Hamikdash harishon or hasheni as "orthodox" since the term originated in the 19th century. 3. As a side note, in part of the northeastern US some conservative synagogues used (and still use) the term "temple" even though (unlike Reform) they pray for the restoration of the ancient temple in Jerusalem

Temple is used a lot in the South. I grew up in Baltimore hearing it from Jews who had moved North. I never heard the term shul until college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Thank you for your clarity. I wasn't trying to offend, but I wanted a better understanding. Thanks for having the patience to assist me with my inquiries. By the way, what synagogue do you attend? Are visitors welcome?

You are welcome. I'd rather keep my anonymity, but suffice it to say its a Conservative Synagogue in a suburb of DC.

I have never, ever, heard of a synagogue that did not welcome visitors. Vist a synagogue like mine and as a visitor you will be encouraged to say hello the rabbi and other staff, and to join us for food and coffee after services. You will be told, however, to turn off your phone and similar electronic devices.