Would You Sever This Friendship?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had a coworker that was Muslim. He liked to talk religion to everyone in the Office during lunch. One day he gave a few of us copies of the Koran. I figured I'd return the favor and gave him a Bible. He took it from me in the doorway of his Office and then said that the book was considered blasphemous and dropped it into the waste basket next to his door. I was astounded at his behavior. I cut ties with him.

You've reaction to his Offer after you opened the religion door in the relationship reminds me of him.

I cut ties with him. Maybe your friends should cut ties with you too.

Still the same nasty or ignorant poster as above. Ignored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP just admit that you want them to respect your religion but you don't want to hear anything about theirs. You need to just need to make sure everyone around you is Jewish then you will not get offended.

I think you're the same poster as above. So I'll ignore this.

But you didnt ignore it. You replied to it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why you invited them in the first place.
But I would ditch this friendship.

Because she said that her church has a seder, and she found it interesting. I thought she was indicating that she'd enjoy experiencing a Jewish, traditional Seder. (Of course, she was free to turn the invitation down.)

Any Christian church that has a seder is an evangelical church committed to proselytizing, and may even be one of the churches that believes salvation will come when all Jews accept Jesus and/or move to Israel.

Be very wary of Christians who practice Jewish rituals (as opposed to being part of an interfaith network of Christians and Jews) -- they almost always are going to be part of churches that do active testimony and proselytizing.

You might want to post this in the Religion forum, where I suspect other people, including other Christians (I'm Jewish) will back me up.

Not necessarily. My Episcopal Church had a Seder every year during Holy week - on Thursday. It was learning about the Last Supper, which was a Seder. We also did several exchanges/combined ceremonies with our local Jewish Synagogue through the year. It was a low key Episcopal church and I think our minster would have been happy in the UU tradition, except that he loved the liturgy.

OP here. Hmmmm......interesting. This particular "sub-topic" might be of interest in the Religion Forum. I'll post the question there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why you invited them in the first place.
But I would ditch this friendship.

Because she said that her church has a seder, and she found it interesting. I thought she was indicating that she'd enjoy experiencing a Jewish, traditional Seder. (Of course, she was free to turn the invitation down.)

Any Christian church that has a seder is an evangelical church committed to proselytizing, and may even be one of the churches that believes salvation will come when all Jews accept Jesus and/or move to Israel.

Be very wary of Christians who practice Jewish rituals (as opposed to being part of an interfaith network of Christians and Jews) -- they almost always are going to be part of churches that do active testimony and proselytizing.

You might want to post this in the Religion forum, where I suspect other people, including other Christians (I'm Jewish) will back me up.

OP here, and thank you. I had NO IDEA that a Christian church that has a seder is an evangelical church. In fact, when my friend told me about it and I expressed surprise, she told me that it's become very popular for churches to have seders since Christianity is based on Judaism. It seemed reasonable - and sort of nice. Now I know better.

As far as posting this in the religion forum, I did consider it before I posted my OP. I decided to post here instead because the issue is really the relationship - my friend minimizing my feelings about her husband's blatant disrespect of Judaism, and whether to sever the relationship.

OP- there are Christian churches that have Seders on Thursday of Holy week that are not evangelical. The last Supper was a Seder, so for some Christians having Seder on Maudy Thursday during Holy Week is part and parcel of celebrating it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why you invited them in the first place.
But I would ditch this friendship.

Because she said that her church has a seder, and she found it interesting. I thought she was indicating that she'd enjoy experiencing a Jewish, traditional Seder. (Of course, she was free to turn the invitation down.)

Any Christian church that has a seder is an evangelical church committed to proselytizing, and may even be one of the churches that believes salvation will come when all Jews accept Jesus and/or move to Israel.

Be very wary of Christians who practice Jewish rituals (as opposed to being part of an interfaith network of Christians and Jews) -- they almost always are going to be part of churches that do active testimony and proselytizing.

You might want to post this in the Religion forum, where I suspect other people, including other Christians (I'm Jewish) will back me up.

OP here, and thank you. I had NO IDEA that a Christian church that has a seder is an evangelical church. In fact, when my friend told me about it and I expressed surprise, she told me that it's become very popular for churches to have seders since Christianity is based on Judaism. It seemed reasonable - and sort of nice. Now I know better.

As far as posting this in the religion forum, I did consider it before I posted my OP. I decided to post here instead because the issue is really the relationship - my friend minimizing my feelings about her husband's blatant disrespect of Judaism, and whether to sever the relationship.

OP- there are Christian churches that have Seders on Thursday of Holy week that are not evangelical. The last Supper was a Seder, so for some Christians having Seder on Maudy Thursday during Holy Week is part and parcel of celebrating it.

OP here - thanks. I actually just posted that question in the Religion Forum. But what you say makes sense, and that's why I didn't think it anything too odd that my friend's church had a seder. In fact, I sorta thought it was nice - getting back to Jesus' roots and all that.

[Anonymous]

In my experience, churches that have seders tend to be the evangelical, proseltyzing type.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

1) I am not intolerant of other perspectives. That's why I have friends of all religions - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and plenty of atheists, too. To each his own, I say, as long as they are respectful of others' beliefs.

2) And YOU don't think he disparaged my religion? I invited him to one of the most important Jewish ceremonies of the year, and five minutes after it's over.....he basically says that if I don't abandon the religion he just observed, I will go to Hell. He didn't say, as another poster remarked, "hey, thanks for a lovely evening. Would you be interested in coming to one of my church services?" I would have taken that as reciprocity (in his mind). But he didn't start out that way....he started out by letting me know that he thinks I'm destined for Hell. Nice.

3) The reason I say "in his mind" (in #2 above), is because the invitation isn't really an equal type of thing. When a Christian goes to a Seder, there is nothing there that runs counter to his beliefs. In fact, you could say he's getting closer to Jesus by experiencing one of his religious traditions. But when a Jew goes to a church, he DOES hear a lot that completely negates his religious beliefs.

4) And finally, he did more than simply extend an invitation to "reach out" to me. He badgered me about it. I told him "I appreciate it, but I don't think it's for me" nicely, and then he came back a second time, and I told him "no" again, and then a third....practically DEMANDING I go.

Love your reasoning; which is in essence: his religion and my religion are not equivalent because his offends me by mine does not offend him.

Do you really not see the absurdity of your argument? How do you know what does or does not offend him? What gives you the right to define his experience? You can no more state his beliefs for him as he can for you. By assuming you can, you have in effect, betrayed your intolerance.

[Anonymous]

Your friend's husband is a jackass. I don't know why you'd want to continue the friendship afterwards unless you want to make the act of "he wants to convert me and I refuse" a part of your inside-joke comedy routine.

I don't get those who draw some sort of equivalence between what the two of you did along the lines of "he went to your religious event, now you are obligated to go to his." There is a huge difference between "come and enjoy this ritual or meal with us" and "come and learn more about my religion so you can adopt it." Ewww. The first is like an invitation to a wedding or baptism - you may not be a Christian but if your friend is getting married or baptizing a baby, you come and enjoy this event with them. The second is proselytizing and is not cool, especially after being told, explicitly, that you aren't interested.

I'm married to a Muslim. We host a ton of iftar dinners during Ramadan and invite all kinds of people. It's not a proselytizing event at all; we are just sharing a meal with them. I would be aghast if someone suggested I now owe them a visit to their church and a tryout.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:YOU invited them to a religion event BUT then YOU are offended when THEY invite YOU to their religious event.

Why are YOU so intolerant of other perspectives?
They were nice and respectful at your event. Why are you UNWILLING to attend their event?

The way YOU interpreted of felt about his question is YOUR problem. YOU interpreted his question according to YOUR internal barometer. In your own original post you said that YOU took his comment a certain way. He did not actually disparage your religion. You just assumed that is was his intention.

Moreover. even if he doesn't believe your religion and think you need to be Christian. Isn't that a statement that he is concerned about your well being? Why can't you just take the invitation as him reaching out to you. He merely reciprocated your invitation with his own.

Why can't HE just take "I'm not interested" for an answer? You're like a suitor who keeps asking the girl out even after she declines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

1) I am not intolerant of other perspectives. That's why I have friends of all religions - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and plenty of atheists, too. To each his own, I say, as long as they are respectful of others' beliefs.

2) And YOU don't think he disparaged my religion? I invited him to one of the most important Jewish ceremonies of the year, and five minutes after it's over.....he basically says that if I don't abandon the religion he just observed, I will go to Hell. He didn't say, as another poster remarked, "hey, thanks for a lovely evening. Would you be interested in coming to one of my church services?" I would have taken that as reciprocity (in his mind). But he didn't start out that way....he started out by letting me know that he thinks I'm destined for Hell. Nice.

3) The reason I say "in his mind" (in #2 above), is because the invitation isn't really an equal type of thing. When a Christian goes to a Seder, there is nothing there that runs counter to his beliefs. In fact, you could say he's getting closer to Jesus by experiencing one of his religious traditions. But when a Jew goes to a church, he DOES hear a lot that completely negates his religious beliefs.

4) And finally, he did more than simply extend an invitation to "reach out" to me. He badgered me about it. I told him "I appreciate it, but I don't think it's for me" nicely, and then he came back a second time, and I told him "no" again, and then a third....practically DEMANDING I go.

Love your reasoning; which is in essence: his religion and my religion are not equivalent because his offends me by mine does not offend him.

Do you really not see the absurdity of your argument? How do you know what does or does not offend him? What gives you the right to define his experience? You can no more state his beliefs for him as he can for you. By assuming you can, you have in effect, betrayed your intolerance.

I don't think the OP is intolerant. Jews do not believe that salvation lies through accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, full stop. Evangelicals believe that everyone who is not "saved" by accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior is going to hell, full stop. Jews do not accept the New Testament, whereas Evangelicalism is based mostly on the NT. It's a one-way compatibility thing. It's not dissimilar to the idea that polytheistic religions do not have too much trouble integrating monotheistic ones because there is usually space for another deity, while monotheistic religions are not able to entertain the idea of multiple deities.

His first comments to the OP may have been poorly phrased. Growing up around a lot of Evangelicals, I learned that when they ask you if you know you're going to hell or if you want to avoid going to hell, they are not being rude and it should not be taken personally. That's a tenant of their religion and not said out of malice. However, when the OP politely declined his invitation and he continued to push her, he crossed the line between potential poor phrasing and actual disrespect. It was extra disrespectful because it was Passover, but his persistence would have been disrespectful if he'd been inviting her to a baseball game and continued to push after she declined.

The OP doesn't have to go to his church, where many, many more people will try to "save" her, simply to demonstrate her tolerance. If she's not interested, she can politely decline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why you invited them in the first place.
But I would ditch this friendship.

Because she said that her church has a seder, and she found it interesting. I thought she was indicating that she'd enjoy experiencing a Jewish, traditional Seder. (Of course, she was free to turn the invitation down.)

Invitation to a Seder is an honor to the guests and in keeping with the tradition of inviting others into your home to share that event. It's not an attempt to proselytize. Hounding you about church is not the same thing as being invited to a Seder. And his bringing up your beliefs vs his RIGHT AFTER attending a Seder, one of the most special events on the Jewish calendar, is tacky and insensitive. If your friend doesn't get why you're upset, andcthry cant leave the religion thing alone, then is drop the friendship. They seem unable to accept you for who you are.

I don't know much about the Jewish tradition and Sedar but generally OP (and anyone else reading this), I think inviting other people, PARTICULARLY very religious christians to a non-christian religious event is kind of just asking for trouble if you aren't interested in discussing theology. There's a reason people say to leave religion and politics off the table!

Totally agree with this poster and I'm Jewish!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:YOU invited them to a religion event BUT then YOU are offended when THEY invite YOU to their religious event.

Why are YOU so intolerant of other perspectives?
They were nice and respectful at your event. Why are you UNWILLING to attend their event?

The way YOU interpreted of felt about his question is YOUR problem. YOU interpreted his question according to YOUR internal barometer. In your own original post you said that YOU took his comment a certain way. He did not actually disparage your religion. You just assumed that is was his intention.

Moreover. even if he doesn't believe your religion and think you need to be Christian. Isn't that a statement that he is concerned about your well being? Why can't you just take the invitation as him reaching out to you. He merely reciprocated your invitation with his own.

Hey, hey... nobody told me the best friend had joined us!

[Anonymous]

Did you mom or aunt yell at your friend about something not being similar to Christian practice? Just wondering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did you mom or aunt yell at your friend about something not being similar to Christian practice? Just wondering.

Of course not! My family was warm and welcoming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

1) I am not intolerant of other perspectives. That's why I have friends of all religions - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and plenty of atheists, too. To each his own, I say, as long as they are respectful of others' beliefs.

2) And YOU don't think he disparaged my religion? I invited him to one of the most important Jewish ceremonies of the year, and five minutes after it's over.....he basically says that if I don't abandon the religion he just observed, I will go to Hell. He didn't say, as another poster remarked, "hey, thanks for a lovely evening. Would you be interested in coming to one of my church services?" I would have taken that as reciprocity (in his mind). But he didn't start out that way....he started out by letting me know that he thinks I'm destined for Hell. Nice.

3) The reason I say "in his mind" (in #2 above), is because the invitation isn't really an equal type of thing. When a Christian goes to a Seder, there is nothing there that runs counter to his beliefs. In fact, you could say he's getting closer to Jesus by experiencing one of his religious traditions. But when a Jew goes to a church, he DOES hear a lot that completely negates his religious beliefs.

4) And finally, he did more than simply extend an invitation to "reach out" to me. He badgered me about it. I told him "I appreciate it, but I don't think it's for me" nicely, and then he came back a second time, and I told him "no" again, and then a third....practically DEMANDING I go.

Love your reasoning; which is in essence: his religion and my religion are not equivalent because his offends me by mine does not offend him.

Do you really not see the absurdity of your argument? How do you know what does or does not offend him? What gives you the right to define his experience? You can no more state his beliefs for him as he can for you. By assuming you can, you have in effect, betrayed your intolerance.

I don't think the OP is intolerant. Jews do not believe that salvation lies through accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, full stop. Evangelicals believe that everyone who is not "saved" by accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior is going to hell, full stop. Jews do not accept the New Testament, whereas Evangelicalism is based mostly on the NT. It's a one-way compatibility thing. It's not dissimilar to the idea that polytheistic religions do not have too much trouble integrating monotheistic ones because there is usually space for another deity, while monotheistic religions are not able to entertain the idea of multiple deities.

His first comments to the OP may have been poorly phrased. Growing up around a lot of Evangelicals, I learned that when they ask you if you know you're going to hell or if you want to avoid going to hell, they are not being rude and it should not be taken personally. That's a tenant of their religion and not said out of malice. However, when the OP politely declined his invitation and he continued to push her, he crossed the line between potential poor phrasing and actual disrespect. It was extra disrespectful because it was Passover, but his persistence would have been disrespectful if he'd been inviting her to a baseball game and continued to push after she declined.

The OP doesn't have to go to his church, where many, many more people will try to "save" her, simply to demonstrate her tolerance. If she's not interested, she can politely decline.

OP here, and thank you for explaining this to (some of) the posters, who don't get the differnce between being invited to someone's holiday celebration (I certainly go to Christmas parties!) and having someone demand, repeatedly, you go to their service as the first step in conversion. Throw in the explicit expression that you're doomed to hell otherwise, and it's beyond disrepectful.