This Virginia high school led the nation with six perfect AP test scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently Richard Spencer has found this thread and thinks he is being witty with his responses. Non-answers all.

Nobody is being funny. Why are AA and Hispanic kids admitted in such low numbers? Because the AA and Hispanic kids who apply don't have the credentials. And throwing a kid who isn't prepared into TJ isn't doing them any favors.

Now, why don't they have the credentials? In FCPS, my strong guess is SES. AA and Hispanic students in FCPS tend to be lower SES than white and Asian kids. And do you know who has even weaker representation numbers than AA or Hispanic kids? FARMS kids. FCPS is 28% FARMs and TJ is less than 1% FARMS.

Or just possibly the metric being used has a cultural bias that most often favors others groups... Groups who benefit from this love to claim otherwise, but keep telling yourself it's merit if it helps you sleep at night.

Cultural bias would work against Asian applicants and in favor of black/Hispanic applicants for the following reasons:

1. Heavy weight given to SIS short essays and Long essay,
2. Easy math portion which does not distinguish top performers and only requires 30/50,
3. Emphasis on how the applicants present and answer the prompts as supposed to what the applicants actually engaged in or accomplished in the STEM area,
4. Heavy weight given to LOR,
5. Totally subjective holistic admission decision to select the final 480 students.

Those things are all good and well, but looking at the actual outcomes, it's clear they are insufficient and require further iteration.

Perhaps the applicants (those not selected) are insufficient and require further iteration.

The data indicates otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You did an excellent job of explaining some of the outreach programs of FCPS and TJ to increase blacks and Hispanics at TJ.

What is ironic is that almost all of the black students are actually relatively recent immigrants from African countries and Caribbean countries NOT black students of families who have lived in the US for decades or longer who should benefit from these programs. Same for the affirmative action programs of the top colleges: most of the students are immigrants from Africa/Caribbean nations (and the rest are black students from high HHI with professional parents) not lower SES blacks who should actually benefit from these programs.

I find it ironic that everyone seems to think that they know what AA students need without asking the AA students and parents what they want from the education system.

AA are not using these programs in the numbers that WE think that they should. I feel that those who want to use these programs will do so. However, we need to stop defining success, goals and aspirations of AA without their input.

There are many students and parents of all races who do not want to go to TJ.

As an AA Jr. High Schooler I was offered the chance to apply/attend TJ when it first opened. I went to the informational session and knew those were not my people! Not how they looked, just the interests. I went on to earn a BA and work in STEM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently Richard Spencer has found this thread and thinks he is being witty with his responses. Non-answers all.

Nobody is being funny. Why are AA and Hispanic kids admitted in such low numbers? Because the AA and Hispanic kids who apply don't have the credentials. And throwing a kid who isn't prepared into TJ isn't doing them any favors.

Now, why don't they have the credentials? In FCPS, my strong guess is SES. AA and Hispanic students in FCPS tend to be lower SES than white and Asian kids. And do you know who has even weaker representation numbers than AA or Hispanic kids? FARMS kids. FCPS is 28% FARMs and TJ is less than 1% FARMS.

Or just possibly the metric being used has a cultural bias that most often favors others groups... Groups who benefit from this love to claim otherwise, but keep telling yourself it's merit if it helps you sleep at night.

Cultural bias would work against Asian applicants and in favor of black/Hispanic applicants for the following reasons:

1. Heavy weight given to SIS short essays and Long essay,
2. Easy math portion which does not distinguish top performers and only requires 30/50,
3. Emphasis on how the applicants present and answer the prompts as supposed to what the applicants actually engaged in or accomplished in the STEM area,
4. Heavy weight given to LOR,
5. Totally subjective holistic admission decision to select the final 480 students.

Those things are all good and well, but looking at the actual outcomes, it's clear they are insufficient and require further iteration.

Perhaps the applicants (those not selected) are insufficient and require further iteration.

The data indicates otherwise.

What data on the applicants not selected shows they have the credentials. Only released data is who makes the semifinal round. And AAs and Hispanics sognificantly underperform on this. Significantly. The semifinal pool is well below the applicant pool in terms of percent AA and Hispanic). Other data released is admits w/3.8 and above 3.9 and above and 4.0 GPA. Plus two levels is math test scores (maybe 48/50 and 45/50?). The show AA, FARMs or Hispanic with a 3.8-3.9 and 48/50 will get in and 45/50 is very highly likely. No so with white and Asian kids, who have a good chance at these levels. But certainly not at the certainty of AA/Hispanic. So where is your data that a bunch of highly qualified AA/Hispanic kids aren't getting in?

Applying, even from AAP, does not make you qualified. Each year only about 1/3 of the applicants are semifinalists 1000/3000, give or take). And becoming a semifinalists is actually a low GPA plus TJ test score bar.

So-- data?

[Anonymous]

^^ To the PP above. I saw data posted earlier in the thread that supports what other posters are offering. Maybe if you think there is data to the contrary, then you should provide it. Seems ridiculous for you to criticize the other data, and demand additional data, without offering any of your own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently Richard Spencer has found this thread and thinks he is being witty with his responses. Non-answers all.

Nobody is being funny. Why are AA and Hispanic kids admitted in such low numbers? Because the AA and Hispanic kids who apply don't have the credentials. And throwing a kid who isn't prepared into TJ isn't doing them any favors.

Now, why don't they have the credentials? In FCPS, my strong guess is SES. AA and Hispanic students in FCPS tend to be lower SES than white and Asian kids. And do you know who has even weaker representation numbers than AA or Hispanic kids? FARMS kids. FCPS is 28% FARMs and TJ is less than 1% FARMS.

Or just possibly the metric being used has a cultural bias that most often favors others groups... Groups who benefit from this love to claim otherwise, but keep telling yourself it's merit if it helps you sleep at night.

Cultural bias would work against Asian applicants and in favor of black/Hispanic applicants for the following reasons:

1. Heavy weight given to SIS short essays and Long essay,
2. Easy math portion which does not distinguish top performers and only requires 30/50,
3. Emphasis on how the applicants present and answer the prompts as supposed to what the applicants actually engaged in or accomplished in the STEM area,
4. Heavy weight given to LOR,
5. Totally subjective holistic admission decision to select the final 480 students.

Those things are all good and well, but looking at the actual outcomes, it's clear they are insufficient and require further iteration.

Perhaps the applicants (those not selected) are insufficient and require further iteration.

The data indicates otherwise.

[Anonymous]

For the PP trying to say that data from 1st and 2nd round of admissions would show that black and Hispanic students are just not capable of handling the work at TJ ...

for Asian students, the acceptance rate was closer to 22 percent. For white students, it was 11 percent, and for Hispanic students it was 5.9 percent. Black students were admitted at a rate of 2.9 percent, with just five black students accepted to the school ... a higher number of black and Hispanic students made it to the semifinal round in the admissions process this year, which she said demonstrates that minorities are competing for spots at TJ

Last year, Hone filed a civil rights complaint with the U.S. Department of Education alleging that the Fairfax County school system is systematically failing to identify black, Hispanic and disabled students for gifted education programs. The Department of Education investigation is ongoing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/student-population-at-thomas-jefferson-shifts-significantly/2013/04/21/f04446b6-a6d9-11e2-b029-8fb7e977ef71_story.html?utm_term=.2e66794d9bd0

“Maybe we ought to rename the school ‘Herndon-Falls Church Alternative School for the Gifted and Wealthy,’”

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/news/2015/apr/22/thomas-jefferson-class-2019-70-asian-16-black/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently Richard Spencer has found this thread and thinks he is being witty with his responses. Non-answers all.

Nobody is being funny. Why are AA and Hispanic kids admitted in such low numbers? Because the AA and Hispanic kids who apply don't have the credentials. And throwing a kid who isn't prepared into TJ isn't doing them any favors.

Now, why don't they have the credentials? In FCPS, my strong guess is SES. AA and Hispanic students in FCPS tend to be lower SES than white and Asian kids. And do you know who has even weaker representation numbers than AA or Hispanic kids? FARMS kids. FCPS is 28% FARMs and TJ is less than 1% FARMS.

Or just possibly the metric being used has a cultural bias that most often favors others groups... Groups who benefit from this love to claim otherwise, but keep telling yourself it's merit if it helps you sleep at night.

This is such bullshit no doubt promulgated by a High SES white person. As a pp said, FCPS and TJ do all sorts of outreach and consideration in the admissions process. The tests are not culturally biased. Geez, I'm so tired of the patronizing attitudes.

And, I'm also tired of the TJ hate. Leave those kids alone. And stop being racist about Asian-American kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the PP trying to say that data from 1st and 2nd round of admissions would show that black and Hispanic students are just not capable of handling the work at TJ ...

for Asian students, the acceptance rate was closer to 22 percent. For white students, it was 11 percent, and for Hispanic students it was 5.9 percent. Black students were admitted at a rate of 2.9 percent, with just five black students accepted to the school ... a higher number of black and Hispanic students made it to the semifinal round in the admissions process this year, which she said demonstrates that minorities are competing for spots at TJ

Last year, Hone filed a civil rights complaint with the U.S. Department of Education alleging that the Fairfax County school system is systematically failing to identify black, Hispanic and disabled students for gifted education programs. The Department of Education investigation is ongoing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/student-population-at-thomas-jefferson-shifts-significantly/2013/04/21/f04446b6-a6d9-11e2-b029-8fb7e977ef71_story.html?utm_term=.2e66794d9bd0

“Maybe we ought to rename the school ‘Herndon-Falls Church Alternative School for the Gifted and Wealthy,’”

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/news/2015/apr/22/thomas-jefferson-class-2019-70-asian-16-black/

This says more AA and Hispanics made it to the semifinals than the prior year. So if 10 advanced the prior year, and 12 this year, that's more. It's still not a deep pool. And semifinalist only need a 30/50 in math to advance. But forget actually being admitted with anything less than 40/50 in math (who the begs the question of why the cutoff is not higher, but anyway). Many kids advance to SFs and have no real shot at admissions because the have a 34/50 in math and 3.5 GPA.

But here's the kicker. The article you cite is not alleging bias in TJ admissions. They are alleging that FCPS fails to successfully prepare black and Hispanic kids to compete for admission. That's a problem. But not one that's TJ's fault. TJ can outreach, mentor, encourage, etc. They cannot educate all of FCPS for FCPS. So ask FCPS-- why are AA and Hispanic kids being left behind?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently Richard Spencer has found this thread and thinks he is being witty with his responses. Non-answers all.

Nobody is being funny. Why are AA and Hispanic kids admitted in such low numbers? Because the AA and Hispanic kids who apply don't have the credentials. And throwing a kid who isn't prepared into TJ isn't doing them any favors.

Now, why don't they have the credentials? In FCPS, my strong guess is SES. AA and Hispanic students in FCPS tend to be lower SES than white and Asian kids. And do you know who has even weaker representation numbers than AA or Hispanic kids? FARMS kids. FCPS is 28% FARMs and TJ is less than 1% FARMS.

Or just possibly the metric being used has a cultural bias that most often favors others groups... Groups who benefit from this love to claim otherwise, but keep telling yourself it's merit if it helps you sleep at night.

This is such bullshit no doubt promulgated by a High SES white person. As a pp said, FCPS and TJ do all sorts of outreach and consideration in the admissions process. The tests are not culturally biased. Geez, I'm so tired of the patronizing attitudes.

And, I'm also tired of the TJ hate. Leave those kids alone. And stop being racist about Asian-American kids.

+1. Have you actually looked at the published, sample TJ test? The issue with a problem that says "if angle x is 60 degrees and angle y is 20 degrees what is angle z" problems is not cultural bias. Math is math. Ditto reading and getting info from science passages or doing the logic problems ("if A stands Beside B and C sands beside D, where does E stand)? If a kid can't:9 basic math, read and understand a passage from a science test and work out basic logic problems, they will never keep the 3.0 they need to stay at TJ, even if they get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PP trying to say that data from 1st and 2nd round of admissions would show that black and Hispanic students are just not capable of handling the work at TJ ...

for Asian students, the acceptance rate was closer to 22 percent. For white students, it was 11 percent, and for Hispanic students it was 5.9 percent. Black students were admitted at a rate of 2.9 percent, with just five black students accepted to the school ... a higher number of black and Hispanic students made it to the semifinal round in the admissions process this year, which she said demonstrates that minorities are competing for spots at TJ

Last year, Hone filed a civil rights complaint with the U.S. Department of Education alleging that the Fairfax County school system is systematically failing to identify black, Hispanic and disabled students for gifted education programs. The Department of Education investigation is ongoing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/student-population-at-thomas-jefferson-shifts-significantly/2013/04/21/f04446b6-a6d9-11e2-b029-8fb7e977ef71_story.html?utm_term=.2e66794d9bd0

“Maybe we ought to rename the school ‘Herndon-Falls Church Alternative School for the Gifted and Wealthy,’”

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/news/2015/apr/22/thomas-jefferson-class-2019-70-asian-16-black/

This says more AA and Hispanics made it to the semifinals than the prior year. So if 10 advanced the prior year, and 12 this year, that's more. It's still not a deep pool. And semifinalist only need a 30/50 in math to advance. But forget actually being admitted with anything less than 40/50 in math (who the begs the question of why the cutoff is not higher, but anyway). Many kids advance to SFs and have no real shot at admissions because the have a 34/50 in math and 3.5 GPA.

But here's the kicker. The article you cite is not alleging bias in TJ admissions. They are alleging that FCPS fails to successfully prepare black and Hispanic kids to compete for admission. That's a problem. But not one that's TJ's fault. TJ can outreach, mentor, encourage, etc. They cannot educate all of FCPS for FCPS. So ask FCPS-- why are AA and Hispanic kids being left behind?

It's a great question. Where aren't they being "left behind?" (academically).
Another question is what are the Asians doing right so that they utterly dominate the list of selectees?

[Anonymous]

Here's what Asian ES and MS schoolers are doing right. They are outworking the white students STEM activities, extra STEM classes after school, lots of TJ test prep. It may not be what you want for your kid. But, no one can argue with a straight face that Asian kids are not working, working and working some more to get in. Where they continue to work incredibly hard. They are earning their spaces. And I do not resent them for it.

-- Parent of a white current TJ student and white TJ applicant in a feeder MS. I don't want my kids to be all STEM all the time for ES and MS. And that puts them at an admissions disadvantage. Which it should. Sometimes life is about trade offs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's what Asian ES and MS schoolers are doing right. They are outworking the white students STEM activities, extra STEM classes after school, lots of TJ test prep. It may not be what you want for your kid. But, no one can argue with a straight face that Asian kids are not working, working and working some more to get in. Where they continue to work incredibly hard. They are earning their spaces. And I do not resent them for it.

-- Parent of a white current TJ student and white TJ applicant in a feeder MS. I don't want my kids to be all STEM all the time for ES and MS. And that puts them at an admissions disadvantage. Which it should. Sometimes life is about trade offs.

Agree 100%. Meanwhile The AA students excel at basketball. It's all about choices. Not the school district "letting them down."

[Anonymous]

The irony is STEM is for total losers. There's no shortage of STEM workers in the US. For example, CS education is at an all-time high. Companies foster this myth to all for the import of inexpensive labor as a means to subvert fair market wages and lower costs. Further, most any high-tech firm worth a damn rarely hires anyone over 30. So good luck with your short underpaid career in tech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The irony is STEM is for total losers. There's no shortage of STEM workers in the US. For example, CS education is at an all-time high. Companies foster this myth to all for the import of inexpensive labor as a means to subvert fair market wages and lower costs. Further, most any high-tech firm worth a damn rarely hires anyone over 30. So good luck with your short underpaid career in tech.

STEM is - Science, Math, Engineering and Technology. So it's not just tech. One of these kids might cure cancer. So STFU

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The irony is STEM is for total losers. There's no shortage of STEM workers in the US. For example, CS education is at an all-time high. Companies foster this myth to all for the import of inexpensive labor as a means to subvert fair market wages and lower costs. Further, most any high-tech firm worth a damn rarely hires anyone over 30. So good luck with your short underpaid career in tech.

STEM is - Science, Math, Engineering and Technology. So it's not just tech. One of these kids might cure cancer. So STFU

But more likely they'll end up programming PHP pages at Yahoo.