Overcrowding and lack of space in Ward 3 Schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a newsletter in my inbox this morning from Ruth Wattenberg. This was one of the items:

Ward3-Wilson Feeder School Education Network meetings

Wed, Feb 23,
6:45 PM
Tenley Library
with Ward 3 Councilwoman Mary Cheh.
The focus of the meeting will be to talk about the overcrowding and lack of space in the W3/Wilson Feeder schools and possible solutions.


What do you think? What are the solutions?

Were the ward 4 Wilson feeders invited?

Yes, the Ward 3 - Wilson Feeder Education Network includes all schools in the Wilson feeder pattern.

[Anonymous]

In case it's unclear--Lafayette, Shepherd, and Bancroft are the Ward 4 schools that feed to Wilson.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you get rid of PK in Ward 3 - and curtail OOB - then I think the rest of the city should reciprocate: No Ward 3 PK3-4 squatting in our schools.

PK 3 and 4 were started as a way to help disadvantaged children in this city to get up to speed to enter K on level. It was not meant as free daycare for those who can afford it on their own. In most upper NW areas, it's not necessary. Go back to entering school in K only, in upper NW DC, and that might change overcrowding. Most kids in other parts of the city will have already begun in their schools and they won't want to move. Add to that there won't be any space! And if you want free prek, move to those parts of the city that offer it. If you are really being honest, Janney doesn't need it.

[Anonymous]

the basic answer is to set the boundaries for the schools closer to the schools and not allow out-of-boundary access for overly full schools.

I would be happy with the alternative of a fully lottery DCPS and PCS school system that would send Ward 3 kids to Ward 8 and Ward 8 kids to Ward 3 regardless of boundaries and proximity (relying only on transportation and commute pain as boundary-setters), but I'm more interested in dealing with real possibilities.

The rest of DC will benefit if motivated students cannot go to Ward 3 schools and they instead go to schools in their neighborhoods.

They would often instead go to charters if they cannot segregate themselves from their would-be peers.

But in many cases it would lead to increased integration across the city, and after several years, I absolutely believe it would break the patterns of ghetto-level race and class segregation that are happening in DCPS, which segregation has again and again been shown to be amazingly detrimental. Increased integration of Ward 3 is not my goal. Integration of DC is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the basic answer is to set the boundaries for the schools closer to the schools and not allow out-of-boundary access for overly full schools.

I would be happy with the alternative of a fully lottery DCPS and PCS school system that would send Ward 3 kids to Ward 8 and Ward 8 kids to Ward 3 regardless of boundaries and proximity (relying only on transportation and commute pain as boundary-setters), but I'm more interested in dealing with real possibilities.

The rest of DC will benefit if motivated students cannot go to Ward 3 schools and they instead go to schools in their neighborhoods.

They would often instead go to charters if they cannot segregate themselves from their would-be peers.

But in many cases it would lead to increased integration across the city, and after several years, I absolutely believe it would break the patterns of ghetto-level race and class segregation that are happening in DCPS, which segregation has again and again been shown to be amazingly detrimental. Increased integration of Ward 3 is not my goal. Integration of DC is.

And while that is an idealistic goal, good luck finding parents who are willing to sacrifice their kid's education for a broader, better for DC goal. No one is willing to do that.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, look at SF - city wide lottery means rich kids go to private schools and middle class families move out of the city. No I don't want to schlepp across the city for my kids to go to school when they can go to school a mile away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you get rid of PK in Ward 3 - and curtail OOB - then I think the rest of the city should reciprocate: No Ward 3 PK3-4 squatting in our schools.

If OOB spots are available (and they should only be made available where there is excess capacity), any child in DC is eligible to lottery for it. Just because a child lives in a ward with overcrowded schools with little to no OOB capacity doesn't mean they can't lottery for available OOB spots elsewhere. And your idea is even more delusional if you want to apply it to city-wide charters. Do you consider those "your" schools as well?

It is certainly true that most people in Ward 3 don't *need* free PK, but neither do the middle and upper middle class gentrifiers and long-term residents EOTP. So there is really no economic argument either to support your resentment-driven ideas, unless you want to introduce means-tested access to PK city-wide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you get rid of PK in Ward 3 - and curtail OOB - then I think the rest of the city should reciprocate: No Ward 3 PK3-4 squatting in our schools.

If OOB spots are available (and they should only be made available where there is excess capacity), any child in DC is eligible to lottery for it. Just because a child lives in a ward with overcrowded schools with little to no OOB capacity doesn't mean they can't lottery for available OOB spots elsewhere. And your idea is even more delusional if you want to apply it to city-wide charters. Do you consider those "your" schools as well?

It is certainly true that most people in Ward 3 don't *need* free PK, but neither do the middle and upper middle class gentrifiers and long-term residents EOTP. So there is really no economic argument either to support your resentment-driven ideas, unless you want to introduce means-tested access to PK city-wide.

+1. If PP wants to go to 'their' schools IB, they can, with priority in PK3 and PK4 over OOBs from WOTP and anywhere else. So what's this "squatting" that PP feels harmed by? Bizarre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you get rid of PK in Ward 3 - and curtail OOB - then I think the rest of the city should reciprocate: No Ward 3 PK3-4 squatting in our schools.

If OOB spots are available (and they should only be made available where there is excess capacity), any child in DC is eligible to lottery for it. Just because a child lives in a ward with overcrowded schools with little to no OOB capacity doesn't mean they can't lottery for available OOB spots elsewhere. And your idea is even more delusional if you want to apply it to city-wide charters. Do you consider those "your" schools as well?

It is certainly true that most people in Ward 3 don't *need* free PK, but neither do the middle and upper middle class gentrifiers and long-term residents EOTP. So there is really no economic argument either to support your resentment-driven ideas, unless you want to introduce means-tested access to PK city-wide.

+1. If PP wants to go to 'their' schools IB, they can, with priority in PK3 and PK4 over OOBs from WOTP and anywhere else. So what's this "squatting" that PP feels harmed by? Bizarre.

Agreed, and the idea that a reduction in PK offerings for IB students at Ward 3 schools (in addition to adjusting OOB seats based on enrollment) should somehow be part of the justification for denying lottery access to WOTP families is so illogical I can't even begin to pick it apart. Because people WOTP get LESS for their tax dollars than a family with the same HHI EOTP means they shouldn't even try their luck in the lottery and take on the burden of a commute if they are so inclined (I imagine relatively few people do anyway)? She must be really angry to offer such foggy reasoning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, look at SF - city wide lottery means rich kids go to private schools and middle class families move out of the city. No I don't want to schlepp across the city for my kids to go to school when they can go to school a mile away.

+ a million.

Thank God we don't have such a stupid system as SF.

[Anonymous]

NP. I think the answer is obvious for those schools that are overcrowded: there needs to be some combination of boundary shrinking and/or OOB reduction.

That's hard medicine because it will piss off people who want access to the Ward 3 schools but won't get it. You certainly should lessen the pain by grandfathering in those students already at the school. But there will inevitably be neighborhoods that lose access, even if they don't have school-age kids yet, which will be pissed off. Also, many of the boundary-edge neighborhoods that are likely to get squeezed out by shrinking boundaries have significant AA populations, which makes it really easy to level an accusation of racism against those who might propose shrinking boundaries.

The other option is cutting OOB students. But cutting lots of OOB students leads to the other problem, which is that people will see the Ward 3 schools "getting whiter." That's an inevitable result of reducing OOB spots, because the OOB community is less-white than Ward 3 residents. So it leads to people complaining that reducing OOB spots is essentially racism. I think that's an unfair and inaccurate accusation, but it's a damning one that is hard for anyone advocating for fewer OOB students (and certainly any DC politician) to refute.

I personally think though that shrinking boundaries and cutting OOB students are the only two viable approaches to lessening overcrowding. The key is that politicians and community members need to be willing to impose the short-term pain, and accept the potential voter backlash. But long-term, that's the only solution. Continuing to let more students into the overcrowded schools doesn't solve any problems; it just kicks the can down the road. Pushing the excess students out will be painful, but it will strengthen other schools that those families return to, which is a good thing for DC long-term. DC should pair the boundary/OOB reduction with a plan for increased resources to the schools where those removed students will be attending instead of the overcrowded Ward 3 schools. In other words, give people a good alternative. Also, the strong network of charters in place in DC will help lessen the pain for families because they'll have lots of other options to replace the Ward 3 schools they're losing access to.

The only other options I can see are (1) something radical like shifting to a citywide lottery, or (2) building even more school capacity in Ward 3. The citywide lottery is just dumb IMHO. It makes everyone feel less resentful because it "shares the pain," but it's terribly inefficient. Building more schools (or expanding the existing schools) in Ward 3 is the coward's solution IMHO because it's just wasting money so people can stuff even more children into the desirable Ward 3 schools, and continuing to allow all the other schools outside Ward 3 to sink deeper into trouble. It might make some people feel good because they can say things like "Alice Deal for everyone!," but it doesn't improve schools in the long run, and it just means we are transporting more kids to Ward 3 to make ourselves feel better without effecting real improvement.

Personally, I also think the current situation creates its own set of racially complex arrangements. I suspect the current complex lottery system favors high-SES (ie, white) families, because they're the ones with extra time, resources, and know-how to sort out how they can game the system to get their OOB children into Ward 3 feeders. Also, the refusal of DCPS to shrink the borders around overcrowded schools likely leads to lots of additional gentrification from high-SES and white families into those border communities. So although the obvious solution of shrinking boundaries and reducing OOB students has some elements that undeniably will adversely impact lower-SES and AA families, the current overcrowded situation has similar racial problems just presented differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a newsletter in my inbox this morning from Ruth Wattenberg. This was one of the items:

Ward3-Wilson Feeder School Education Network meetings

Wed, Feb 23,
6:45 PM
Tenley Library
with Ward 3 Councilwoman Mary Cheh.
The focus of the meeting will be to talk about the overcrowding and lack of space in the W3/Wilson Feeder schools and possible solutions.


What do you think? What are the solutions?

Were the ward 4 Wilson feeders invited?

Yes, the Ward 3 - Wilson Feeder Education Network includes all schools in the Wilson feeder pattern.

I didn't get an invite. I blame Todd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. I think the answer is obvious for those schools that are overcrowded: there needs to be some combination of boundary shrinking and/or OOB reduction.

That's hard medicine because it will piss off people who want access to the Ward 3 schools but won't get it. You certainly should lessen the pain by grandfathering in those students already at the school. But there will inevitably be neighborhoods that lose access, even if they don't have school-age kids yet, which will be pissed off. Also, many of the boundary-edge neighborhoods that are likely to get squeezed out by shrinking boundaries have significant AA populations, which makes it really easy to level an accusation of racism against those who might propose shrinking boundaries.

The other option is cutting OOB students. But cutting lots of OOB students leads to the other problem, which is that people will see the Ward 3 schools "getting whiter." That's an inevitable result of reducing OOB spots, because the OOB community is less-white than Ward 3 residents. So it leads to people complaining that reducing OOB spots is essentially racism. I think that's an unfair and inaccurate accusation, but it's a damning one that is hard for anyone advocating for fewer OOB students (and certainly any DC politician) to refute.

I personally think though that shrinking boundaries and cutting OOB students are the only two viable approaches to lessening overcrowding. The key is that politicians and community members need to be willing to impose the short-term pain, and accept the potential voter backlash. But long-term, that's the only solution. Continuing to let more students into the overcrowded schools doesn't solve any problems; it just kicks the can down the road. Pushing the excess students out will be painful, but it will strengthen other schools that those families return to, which is a good thing for DC long-term. DC should pair the boundary/OOB reduction with a plan for increased resources to the schools where those removed students will be attending instead of the overcrowded Ward 3 schools. In other words, give people a good alternative. Also, the strong network of charters in place in DC will help lessen the pain for families because they'll have lots of other options to replace the Ward 3 schools they're losing access to.

The only other options I can see are (1) something radical like shifting to a citywide lottery, or (2) building even more school capacity in Ward 3. The citywide lottery is just dumb IMHO. It makes everyone feel less resentful because it "shares the pain," but it's terribly inefficient. Building more schools (or expanding the existing schools) in Ward 3 is the coward's solution IMHO because it's just wasting money so people can stuff even more children into the desirable Ward 3 schools, and continuing to allow all the other schools outside Ward 3 to sink deeper into trouble. It might make some people feel good because they can say things like "Alice Deal for everyone!," but it doesn't improve schools in the long run, and it just means we are transporting more kids to Ward 3 to make ourselves feel better without effecting real improvement.

Personally, I also think the current situation creates its own set of racially complex arrangements. I suspect the current complex lottery system favors high-SES (ie, white) families, because they're the ones with extra time, resources, and know-how to sort out how they can game the system to get their OOB children into Ward 3 feeders. Also, the refusal of DCPS to shrink the borders around overcrowded schools likely leads to lots of additional gentrification from high-SES and white families into those border communities. So although the obvious solution of shrinking boundaries and reducing OOB students has some elements that undeniably will adversely impact lower-SES and AA families, the current overcrowded situation has similar racial problems just presented differently.

Shrinking boundaries (i.e., cutting out the 50 kids a year at bancroft and shepherd that attend Deal) is not enough. It will not address over crowding at Eaton, Janney, Mann, Lafayette, and now Hearst. It will barely throw a stitch at Deal and Wilson. There obviously needs to be a new elementary, new middle and new high school WOTP at the very least. New elementary should primarily pull from Janney and Lafayette.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Solutions:

--Add additional space.
--Get rid of PK classrooms.
--Shrink boundaries
--Open a new elementary school (or one devoted just to Early Education) in Ward 3 to take off some of the pressure.
--Leave as is and suffer through knowing that the bubble will pass.

Office of planning doesn't think it's a bubble. They're projecting DC will exceed its all-time high population by 2030. Fifty years ago DCPS had almost 150,000 students.

that would mean doubling the existing population of public ed students in the next 12-13 years. Don't see how tha'ts remotely possble

The projections don't show the school-age population going back to 1960's levels, but they do predict something like 35,000 more elementary-age kids in ten years. That would mean each of DCPS' 90 elementary schools taking an additional 400 students.

I kind of feel the projections are like global warming: if true, they are so catastrophic that people just can't imagine them happening.

Not realy -- charters would take a good chunk of that increase. I don't think 35K is unreasonable to handle but 90K not realistic. DC can always add additional seats or expand charter licenses if demand out of balance with supply. They can't double capactity in 12 years

There is one person on this board who is obsessed with this 'issue' and keeps calling children from WOTP who attend PK EOTP "squatters".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you get rid of PK in Ward 3 - and curtail OOB - then I think the rest of the city should reciprocate: No Ward 3 PK3-4 squatting in our schools.

If OOB spots are available (and they should only be made available where there is excess capacity), any child in DC is eligible to lottery for it. Just because a child lives in a ward with overcrowded schools with little to no OOB capacity doesn't mean they can't lottery for available OOB spots elsewhere. And your idea is even more delusional if you want to apply it to city-wide charters. Do you consider those "your" schools as well?

It is certainly true that most people in Ward 3 don't *need* free PK, but neither do the middle and upper middle class gentrifiers and long-term residents EOTP. So there is really no economic argument either to support your resentment-driven ideas, unless you want to introduce means-tested access to PK city-wide.

+1. If PP wants to go to 'their' schools IB, they can, with priority in PK3 and PK4 over OOBs from WOTP and anywhere else. So what's this "squatting" that PP feels harmed by? Bizarre.

(Oops, quoted wrong post. Meant to respond to this.)

There is one person on this board who is obsessed with this 'issue' and keeps calling children from WOTP who attend PK EOTP "squatters".