WES v Norwood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Norwood parent again. It is a nice school. I have to think very hard to come up with negatives. I am comparing it to local public schools, which are very good, rather than to WES. I have spoken to teachers at other private schools who say that it is one of the best in MC. Some say better than Sidwell's lower school. Also, two public school teachers say that it is superior to some in Bethesda that have good reputations.

The areas that I think they could improve are wrt diversity and some other issues that relate to subtle snobbery.
Also, the math program is not the best in the early grades. That said, we looked at all the other big privates in MC (Green Acres, Sidwell, WES) and also found their math to be poor. That can also be said about MCPS since it seems to be the same program. I just wish that Norwood would do more to correct that now.

They do a very good job with languages. My children are learning Spanish, and the accent is coming along nicely.
Reading is encouraged in such a positive way. The standards are high.
Children are happy.

I agree with this, as a Norwood parent. Interested in the "subtle snobbery" concern. Can you elaborate? I am very happy with the reading program. Which I consider very important. Agree on math, too, however.

Thanks, I haven't encountered this and hope I don't! Agree, I have met some incredibly nice families, that after spending more time with them, going to their homes, etc. they are clearly very wealthy, but down to earth and really nice. I come from a bias that much old money is usually less showy and not snobby.


It is strange in that some of the wealthiest families are actually the nicest and most welcoming. So to me, it is kind of complex, not really based on income per se. That said, most of the families are very nice, it is just a pocket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do any independent schools accelerate in the lower grades? I haven't heard of it, but we only looked at five schools.

To generalize from PP on Norwood, Independent Schools don't often accelerate. In public schools, there is acceleration, and it is part of the system. This isn't perfect either (some backlash within the county by people who created the accelerated system (esp. IM math) who think it is being done really badly, and when the kids get to the accelerated HS programs they don't know much.

This is interesting to me. I was accelerated at a young age in math. I started to do poorly and hate math in later highschool. I think I should have stayed with my peers as I was missing some fundamentals. It caught up with me.

[Anonymous]

Great for recognizing this. This happens. A familiar story of biting off more than you can chew. Applies to a lot more than just Math. Fortunately, my history of Math acceleration did not catch up with me. I flourished. I think I can gauge my kids abilities and progress and reign them in if necessary. They are fortunate for a much richer exposure to higher maths and science at home in much the same way that some musician's kids my have a richer exposure to music than they get in school. I would not slow them down if they are able, willing and capable.

[Anonymous]

I see a lot of this in MCPS where they suddenly put a child in 5th grade math and they just finished third grade math. I don't see why anyone needs to be doing real analysis in 12th grade, so what is the rush. In college, I noticed that some of us that "did" calculus in HS did not really have a grasp in Calculus I. The students who easily went through all of the problems were usually the foreign students who said that they got two years of it before finishing HS. It was done more thoroughly.
Also, if a child is gifted in math, and spends little time on homework, that means they have more time for subjects that are challenging, or for more extracurricular activities. So it should be an asset.

[Anonymous]

Brilliant advice. Just what a mind like yours would tell a gifted 4 year-old musician or artist. Slow down. What's the rush? Let your ability fall to the level of others while others catch up. That's the way it should be. There's really no need to function at such a high level. Good Lord, it's much higher than mine.

Why play concertos like 12th grade adults. You actually think these kids are rushing or is this transference.

I hope you get my drift.

Thank god for folk who are outside of the box, miles from the mean and refuse, to follow the hoof beaten well trodden paths of the masses like you.

[Anonymous]

The last few posts have given different perspectives, and all can be valid. That is why parents have to think carefully about the specific child, and the overall balance in life (for my child, math is recreation, along with some other stuff). My child has benefited enormously from pretty extreme acceleration; for me, it pushed me too far too fast, and I lost confidence and now am math-phobic. Husband went to truly crappy public school where he was the top and there was absolutely no challenge, he sailed through uninterested; got to an Ivy, and really struggled for a couple of years (but eventually worked through it). Who is to say what is best (except I'd eliminate the crappy school option)?

[Anonymous]

I see a lot of this in MCPS where they suddenly put a child in 5th grade math and they just finished third grade math. I don't see why anyone needs to be doing real analysis in 12th grade, so what is the rush. In college, I noticed that some of us that "did" calculus in HS did not really have a grasp in Calculus I. The students who easily went through all of the problems were usually the foreign students who said that they got two years of it before finishing HS. It was done more thoroughly.
Also, if a child is gifted in math, and spends little time on homework, that means they have more time for subjects that are challenging, or for more extracurricular activities. So it should be an asset.

We appreciate your opinion about real analysis for 12 th graders. But disagree. If my child's passion is real analysis in 12 th grade and he is able, willing and capable I will make it happen for him. That's my job as a parent and the child's advocate. As a parent I would not discourage him. You are of course free to discourage your child from this pursuit.

[Anonymous]

The last few posts have given different perspectives, and all can be valid. That is why parents have to think carefully about the specific child, and the overall balance in life (for my child, math is recreation, along with some other stuff). My child has benefited enormously from pretty extreme acceleration; for me, it pushed me too far too fast, and I lost confidence and now am math-phobic. Husband went to truly crappy public school where he was the top and there was absolutely no challenge, he sailed through uninterested; got to an Ivy, and really struggled for a couple of years (but eventually worked through it). Who is to say what is best (except I'd eliminate the crappy school option)?

Children are individuals and parents are typically in the best position to know what is best for their children. I certainly would not entrust this to posters on this board. Would you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Brilliant advice. Just what a mind like yours would tell a gifted 4 year-old musician or artist. Slow down. What's the rush? Let your ability fall to the level of others while others catch up. That's the way it should be. There's really no need to function at such a high level. Good Lord, it's much higher than mine.

Why play concertos like 12th grade adults. You actually think these kids are rushing or is this transference.

I hope you get my drift.

Thank god for folk who are outside of the box, miles from the mean and refuse, to follow the hoof beaten well trodden paths of the masses like you.

Not the point. The musician can advance on their own. The math class has to move as a group because of resources.
If you have a child who is very gifted in math and you would like them to move along, I would recommend that you either look at a school like Nysmith, or look at the Hopkins program for talented youth, consider hiring a tutor for that subject (less than private school tuition), or use the public schools where they "advance" more quickly.
BTW, I was one of the MCPS students, advanced in math earlier than I should have been. I had a gift for always being able to spit back the answers correctly, and I was fast. I still do puzzles very well, FWIW.
Realistically, most of us will not be doing advanced math at 16. I knew two kids in college who started in real analysis first year of college, because the completed calculus in HS like I did. They both failed miserabley. I still had a tough time doing calc. I in college seeing it for the second time. College level math puts a different twist in to it.
Also, I could deliver some very complex addition word problems to a gifted 6 year old that would be challenging. Any area of math can be studied in depth. That is something we need to do more of in our math system, delve deeper into the subject areas.

[Anonymous]

Please take a look at this article.
http://www.gazette.net/stories/11182009/bethnew204310_32540.shtml

[Anonymous]

Not the point. The musician can advance on their own. The math class has to move as a group because of resources.
If you have a child who is very gifted in math and you would like them to move along, I would recommend that you either look at a school like Nysmith, or look at the Hopkins program for talented youth, consider hiring a tutor for that subject (less than private school tuition), or use the public schools where they "advance" more quickly.
BTW, I was one of the MCPS students, advanced in math earlier than I should have been. I had a gift for always being able to spit back the answers correctly, and I was fast. I still do puzzles very well, FWIW.
Realistically, most of us will not be doing advanced math at 16. I knew two kids in college who started in real analysis first year of college, because the completed calculus in HS like I did. They both failed miserabley. I still had a tough time doing calc. I in college seeing it for the second time. College level math puts a different twist in to it.
Also, I could deliver some very complex addition word problems to a gifted 6 year old that would be challenging. Any area of math can be studied in depth. That is something we need to do more of in our math system, delve deeper into the subject areas. No thank you. We are in the perfect setting for now. He moves along well with a class already budgeted for by the county.

I am glad you recognise that not all children are the same and follow your path. You also recognize that acceleration is not for everyone. We are in a perfect setting right now that requires no additional resources from the county. The county already budgets for the class and my child simply sits in a chair and participates.

Your suggestions are fine. He is already in CTY, EPGY, AoPS and very involved in problem solving and mathematics competitions (MOEMS, AMC 8 and 10). Unfortunately for you, if your acceleration in school had been accompanied by problem solving training (you can get this by getting involved early in national mathematics competitions and practice) I am sure you would have had a different outcome and not become afraid of the discipline. Problem solving skills require is a much deeper understanding of mathematics than you get in your standard school math curriculum. If you thought, our your parents thought, mathematics was about memorization, computation and spitting answers back, it is no surprise that later on, when the rubber hits the road, you fell of the bike.

Fortunately for me my father trained me in Maths for the first 10 years of my life (essentially all other subjects too) so I never had a fear of math. I am following the same path for both my boys. It's fun. They like it. A solid math foundation and problem solving skills early in school will make science, economics and the social sciences much easier later on.

Therefore, families with children with an intense interest in math should recognize what their options. If you go the private school route I think you will have to supplement outside big time since these schools are reluctant to subject accelerate the occasional student. If you have a child that falls into that category then the public school system and magnets seem more accommodating. Either way it's important to recognize that school math curriculae, both private and public, are quite superficial in the treatment of this subject. Those in the know recognize that exposure early on to the deeper aspects of math involve problem solving skills that can be picked up at home, in math clubs and be engaging in regional and national math competitions. I have not met a radically accelerated elementary math student involved in problem solving with math competitions at an early age who ever found math to be a struggle in middle or high school. Many of these kids are done with perfunctory trig and calculus subjects at the end of middle school or early in high school. Accelerated kids who do not engage in a program of problem solving are the ones that struggle later on with the gaps in foundation.

That's my own experience with math education. There is absolutely nothing fundamentally wrong with math acceleration provided the school, teacher, parent and student really know what they are doing. It's is also no surprise that many children in this country do relatively poorly in math compared to other nations around the globe and express this perennial fear of math.

The train has left the station by middle school if a child doesn't have a solid foundation and it doesn't matter whether, if up to this point, the child has straight As in Math or a WPPSI of 99.9 percentile. Unfortunatley, grades in elementary school math do not correlate with a solid grounding and foundation to move on to the higher subjects of algebra, geometry, number theory and proofs.

[Anonymous]

Many of these kids in PP are the kids that get 800 on SAT 1 and SAT 2 and PSAT exams even before graduating from middle school. They surprising also do well on the verbal and reading sections. Go figure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[ I am sure you would have had a different outcome and not become afraid of the discipline. Problem solving skills require is a much deeper understanding of mathematics than you get in your standard school math curriculum. If you thought, our your parents thought, mathematics was about memorization, computation and spitting answers back, it is no surprise that later on, when the rubber hits the road, you fell of the bike.
are the ones that struggle later on with the gaps in foundation.

That's my own experience with math education. There is absolutely nothing fundamentally wrong with math acceleration provided the school, teacher, parent and student really know what they are doing. It's is also no surprise that many children in this country do relatively poorly in math compared to other nations around the globe and express this perennial fear of math.

The train has left the station by middle school if a child doesn't have a solid foundation and it doesn't matter whether, if up to this point, the child has straight As in Math or a WPPSI of 99.9 percentile. Unfortunatley, grades in elementary school math do not correlate with a solid grounding and foundation to move on to the higher subjects of algebra, geometry, number theory and proofs.

Sorry to have given the wrong impression, but I was a math major in college. I took calculus in the first year because I wanted more than I was taught in HS. I am not afraid if math. I later went back to school and studied engineering. Except for tutoring, I have never taught math as a teacher.

The examples you give about your family are nice, but the schools should be taking care all of that, but they don't. I have friends who are great mathematicians from Eastern Europe and they said that there was little acceleration there, but there were separate classes for talented students, but they pretty much just did more in depth work in the same area, be it geometry, or algebra, or probablity. So my point is that gifted kids can be challenged in addition.

That said, this thread is about Norwood and WES, I would strongly recommend that parents who feel that their children would not be challenged at those schools not spend that much money on their education.

[Anonymous]

Can you name one school that provides a "on grade level" rigorous and challenging mathematics education for elementary school students for advanced pupil?

[Anonymous]

Can you name one school that provides a "on grade level" rigorous and challenging mathematics education for elementary school students for advanced pupil?

Correction

Can you name one school that provides an "on grade level" rigorous and challenging mathematics education for elementary school students -- and for the advanced pupil?