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WES v Norwood
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Anonymous
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The issue is how to effectively teach mathematics well to elementary school children and not whether you advance these students or not. Poor and superficial teaching of this subject at this level will continue whether you advance children or hold them back for 5 years. Children that are taught the basic concepts well can advance regardless of their age or grade level.
Check out some environments without walls, age restrictions and grade levels (some homeschool settings) and witness kids flourish in math ... and advance. |
Anonymous
These children may not receive "home work" in the traditional manner we think of it; but they do work at home, master mathematical concepts in depth and advance. The work at home includes repetition and practise. |
Anonymous
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I hope that all of the people who advance their children are doing it for the right reasons, what ever they might be. I know few kids who actually take advanced math classes who really have thorough knowledge of the particular subject. I have a Bachelor's in math, I had a 3.7 GPA in college (U Penn), and did not have very advanced math classes in HS.
When we look closely at the data, the problem is that in the US, we still have poor performing advanced math students when we compare to other countries. In many of the countries whose advanced students do better than ours, there is little or no advancement of gifted students before age 14. So, what might we be doing wrong? I think it has something to do with glossing over material, and rushing through subjects, because on paper,it looks good (to everyone) that Johnny is in Algebra in 6th grade. I took Algebra for the first time in 9th grade! The fact is that most parents don't even expect their children to become mathematicians (perhaps because of the limited career opportunities), so why rush? I can see many down sides, but what are the benefits? I am working with a talented scientist from Germany, his son is a VERY gifted graduate student here, studying math. The son never went past Calculus in HS, but he did do it over two years in Germany. Maybe we should do a few things: 1. Ask the experts who have looked at large number of students, studies, and outcomes about how to approach the subject. That would be better than relying on anecdotes from teachers and parents. Or listening to textbook publishers who want to make a profit. 2. Look at systems that work, especially those overseas. Instead of reinventing the wheel, maybe just copy it. So far, in the elementary years, it looks like we actually need to slow down, give less homework, go deeper into subject matter with a goal of mastery, and encourage children to memorize some facts. Maybe these are the issues that we should bring up when asking Norwood or WES about their math programs. |
Anonymous
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But where are those experts? Ouside of the US? In Germany?
Do you think US math curricula are drafted by parents and folk like us on DCUM? I doubt it. We have some parents who went farther and deeper than you on this board. |
Anonymous
They are adopted by schools administrators who did little research and sat down to a nice lunch with the publishers. http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm |
Anonymous
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This is useful information for us in that we are right behind you. From your experience it appears it would be important to vet the Algebra teachers at CJMS and/or Wootton ahead of time before entering into negotiations with the school for final placement if one's child will be bused out.
We tried hard to get a teacher who had taught at CSES before, who was tough but well revered. We were permitted to lobby, but the decision was eventually made (or communicated) very late - in August, and there was no "vetting" by the parents. It was a fait accompli. CSES doesn't teach algebra at the school. My older son, who ended up not going, would have gone for algebra straight to the MS, and one other kid was offered (but chose not to). The poster above who says it is done in the ES magnet is not at CSES |
Anonymous
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The fact is that most parents don't even expect their children to become mathematicians (perhaps because of the limited career opportunities), so why rush? I can see many down sides, but what are the benefits?
Maybe we should do a few things: 1. Ask the experts who have looked at large number of students, studies, and outcomes about how to approach the subject. That would be better than relying on anecdotes from teachers and parents. Or listening to textbook publishers who want to make a profit. Maybe these are the issues that we should bring up when asking Norwood or WES about their math programs. This is a well thought out comment, but is directed at the top cohort of students (90th %?), but not the one in 100,000 who compete with the best from around the world, and who seriously want to be mathematicians. What works for a "large number of students" isn't the right solution. So were really talking about apples and oranges. Some parents may overestimate their childrens' abilities, but at some point the parents may actually (yikes!) have the better insights than teachers and principals. I think the thread is diverging from what schools such as Norwood and WES might do for bright kids, and what is best done for truly unusual kids. |
Anonymous
We tried hard to get a teacher who had taught at CSES before, who was tough but well revered. We were permitted to lobby, but the decision was eventually made (or communicated) very late - in August, and there was no "vetting" by the parents. It was a fait accompli. CSES doesn't teach algebra at the school. My older son, who ended up not going, would have gone for algebra straight to the MS, and one other kid was offered (but chose not to). The poster above who says it is done in the ES magnet is not at CSES
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Anonymous
| CSES doesn't teach algebra because law and regulations mandate in MCPS that teaching of algebra must be done by a teacher certified to teach algebra. There are no teachers currently with this certification at CSES. Those students that are deemed ready for Algebra have been transported to the local middle school. Those are the facts. |
Anonymous
This is a well thought out comment, but is directed at the top cohort of students (90th %?), but not the one in 100,000 who compete with the best from around the world, and who seriously want to be mathematicians. What works for a "large number of students" isn't the right solution. So were really talking about apples and oranges. Some parents may overestimate their childrens' abilities, but at some point the parents may actually (yikes!) have the better insights than teachers and principals. I think the thread is diverging from what schools such as Norwood and WES might do for bright kids, and what is best done for truly unusual kids. I truly HOPE that public schools, and private for that matter, are not spending large amounts on the 1 in 100,000. Keep in mind that Einstein went to normal schools and was not in any G&T program. Anyway, it is more important to put extra resources into the education of children who are LD. That pays back in dividends, and it leaves little money for the 1 in 100,000. |
Anonymous
PP above: I would prefer to get back to the original topic at hand re Norwood and WES. If you wish to reply, I'd be more than happy to chat or communicate off line. Thanks. |
Anonymous
My point exactly - when schools can't meet the needs of the truly one outstanding kid, that isn't a problem. Once you get to the Einstein part, you are snarky. |
Anonymous
I seriously doubt the > 50 % of area families that supplement their elementary children's mathematics education outside of school are being snarky for taking control over math education they perceive as woefully inadequate in the school systems. What does Einstein have to do with this? |
Anonymous
I was using Einstein as an example of the 1 in 100,000. Those kids will do well in any decent system, and MCPS and the MC private schools are fine. I agree that the math curriculum in MC is poor, I just hope that the fix does not put us in a worse place. |
Anonymous
Have you read Einstein's biography? Did he do well in elementary school? I gather his school grades were average ... at the very best of times! |