Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3

[Anonymous]

I've watched admissions for several years now and I can assure you all that it's not the traditionally smartest who get into HPY etc. Each year, most of the spots at those schools are filled by athletes and legacies. The strong athlete with a B+ average always trumps the unhooked A student. The A students go to middlebury, Williams, Amherst and end up very happy and successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've watched admissions for several years now and I can assure you all that it's not the traditionally smartest who get into HPY etc. Each year, most of the spots at those schools are filled by athletes and legacies. The strong athlete with a B+ average always trumps the unhooked A student. The A students go to middlebury, Williams, Amherst and end up very happy and successful.

Middlebury and Williams also prefer well rounded strong students to book worms with highest scores. Schools have long known that those who are likely to succeed in later life make better alums than the 16 year old geniuses like Ted Kaczynski who score off the charts.

[Anonymous]

I was always underestimated by college counselors. Could have been my middle class nature or just not fitting in. But I followed my passion and now those very same counselors are coming to me for help placing students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been a Harvard interviewer in this area for a while.

The first question a competitive college will ask is whether your son has taken the most rigorous courseload the school has to offer. The exact GPA only matters to the extent that it needs to be high compared to the standards of the school. The school will generally expect at least 3 5's on AP tests taken as a junior, with several more APs on the transcript for this year. I know many classes at the Big 3 aren't explicitly labeled AP, but we all know that's a bit of a semantic game.

I think the college counselor's conservatism stems from the fact that successful applicants to highly competitive colleges usually have some "distinguishing excellence" achieved outside the school. They are looking for Eagle Scouts, concertmasters in the county youth orchestra, kids who have started tutoring programs or community service projects, kids who have won national writing awards, etc. Has any of your son's research been published or entered in a science competition? If so, that's his way in. If not, it may be difficult for him to stand out in the HYPS applicant pool.

However, if neither you or your husband are university graduates, your son's accomplishments will be taken very seriously. At Harvard at least, the admissions office takes the mantra "Much is expected of those to whom much has been given," very seriously. If your son has achieved what he has starting farther from the finish line than his classmates, the colleges will take note.

Go ahead and tell your son to apply to the reaches, and he shouldn't apply ED to a school he doesn't love. However, you should treat those reach colleges as a spin of the roulette wheel and assume that he will probably be attending one of the ballpark schools his counselor has recommended.

Spot on.

[Anonymous]

I just re-read the original post. The Harvard interviewer post is excellent on the substance.

My short answer is: no, they aren't trying to steer your child to less good schools to save spots for rich people's kids.

BUT, the counselors aren't perfect and might be underestimating your child, so he and you should use your own judgment, taking the counselor's opinions into account but following your educated instincts when necessary. (So, for example, not having your son apply ED to a school about which he is not excited.)

It's important to remember that thinking your child's counselor is not getting it right does not mean the inaccuracy is due to the fix being in or discrimination. College admission rates at the most selective schools are historically low; we come from a highly competitive area; and the process at the college level, while more transparent than it was once, is still opaque enough to be puzzling. You will make yourself crazy if you assume the worst of everyone at your child's school, as you appear to be leaning towards doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've watched admissions for several years now and I can assure you all that it's not the traditionally smartest who get into HPY etc. Each year, most of the spots at those schools are filled by athletes and legacies. The strong athlete with a B+ average always trumps the unhooked A student. The A students go to middlebury, Williams, Amherst and end up very happy and successful.

Well, no doubt you have reviewed all the transcripts of students admitted to HYP from both your school and other schools, as well as tracking their legacy status, in order for you to so confidently "assure" people that the top academic students don't get into the top schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.

What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.

So you think privilege doesn't exist?

I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.

If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."

But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.

Wow, you must be new to this world.

No, I'm not new to this world. I've met good people in college counseling whom I respect greatly. I have also seen some counselors go to extraordinary lengths on behalf of "ordinary' kids, including finding scholarship opportunities (for example the POSSE scholarships) that take a lot of additional work on the counselor's part but have helped made college much more affordable. I don't consider myself naive -- I am not blind to the idea that privilege may play a part in other parts of independent school life (squeaky wheel gets the grease principle) but, again, in the college counseling process I've seen many counselors go the extra mile precisely to help the families that are not as sophisticated in the process.

Right, the problem here is that this counselor does not seem to be doing his best for the unique profile of the OP's son. I'd think that as a minority, top 10% student, solid SAT scores, sports, research, that he'd be trying his best to identify the schools that are looking for students like him. Instead he's apparently pushing ED at a middling public university. At the very least this counselor needs to be doing his due diligence to identify which of the top schools offer the best aid and are working the hardest to diversify their classes. As I posted earlier, there is a HUGE diversity in the Ivies with respect to economic and cultural diversity. Some schools are trying hard to diversify, some not so hard. It doesn't sound like this counselor is on the ball.

That said, OP needs to be strategic here. Whatever the reason for this counselor's suggestions, it is probably not going to work in her favor to alientate him with accusations of discrimination. OP probably just needs to take the lead in doing all of the research the counselor is not doing and then inform the counselor in a non-confrontational way about schools she thinks are good options, and take it from there. Hopefully it won't be necessary to go over his head.

[Anonymous]

And here's a start for your research, OP:

Top colleges and economic diversity: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/upshot/top-colleges-that-enroll-rich-middle-class-and-poor.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

Economic diversity in top 25 schools: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools

And you can bet that in this year's admission cycle, all the schools called out for not being economically diverse enough are going to be trying harder.

For some reason, I think Columbia for your son! I don't know why, just a hunch.

[Anonymous]

And here is ethnic diversity:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/campus-ethnic-diversity

The key is going to be to match up ethnic diversity with lowest net price for lower/middle class students. That's going to indicates schools that may be a good shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.

What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.

So you think privilege doesn't exist?

I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.

If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."

But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.

Wow, you must be new to this world.

No, I'm not new to this world. I've met good people in college counseling whom I respect greatly. I have also seen some counselors go to extraordinary lengths on behalf of "ordinary' kids, including finding scholarship opportunities (for example the POSSE scholarships) that take a lot of additional work on the counselor's part but have helped made college much more affordable. I don't consider myself naive -- I am not blind to the idea that privilege may play a part in other parts of independent school life (squeaky wheel gets the grease principle) but, again, in the college counseling process I've seen many counselors go the extra mile precisely to help the families that are not as sophisticated in the process.

Right, the problem here is that this counselor does not seem to be doing his best for the unique profile of the OP's son. I'd think that as a minority, top 10% student, solid SAT scores, sports, research, that he'd be trying his best to identify the schools that are looking for students like him. Instead he's apparently pushing ED at a middling public university. At the very least this counselor needs to be doing his due diligence to identify which of the top schools offer the best aid and are working the hardest to diversify their classes. As I posted earlier, there is a HUGE diversity in the Ivies with respect to economic and cultural diversity. Some schools are trying hard to diversify, some not so hard. It doesn't sound like this counselor is on the ball.

That said, OP needs to be strategic here. Whatever the reason for this counselor's suggestions, it is probably not going to work in her favor to alientate him with accusations of discrimination. OP probably just needs to take the lead in doing all of the research the counselor is not doing and then inform the counselor in a non-confrontational way about schools she thinks are good options, and take it from there. Hopefully it won't be necessary to go over his head.

This is a very good point, OP. In these schools, the counselor is the one who will do the write-up for your child and the last thing you want to do is get on that counselor's bad side unfortunately. They have a lot of pull, but they can also wreck your child's chances just even by simply circling the answer "I recommend " this student instead of "I enthusiastically recommend" this student (questions like this one are on most of the school referral sheets from colleges). If you are going to try for a school the counselor has specifically counseled against, try to pick recommenders who are going to write glowing recommendations and maybe overshadow any lukewarm sentiments by the counselor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.

What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.

So you think privilege doesn't exist?

I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.

If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."

But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.

Wow, you must be new to this world.

No, I'm not new to this world. I've met good people in college counseling whom I respect greatly. I have also seen some counselors go to extraordinary lengths on behalf of "ordinary' kids, including finding scholarship opportunities (for example the POSSE scholarships) that take a lot of additional work on the counselor's part but have helped made college much more affordable. I don't consider myself naive -- I am not blind to the idea that privilege may play a part in other parts of independent school life (squeaky wheel gets the grease principle) but, again, in the college counseling process I've seen many counselors go the extra mile precisely to help the families that are not as sophisticated in the process.

Right, the problem here is that this counselor does not seem to be doing his best for the unique profile of the OP's son. I'd think that as a minority, top 10% student, solid SAT scores, sports, research, that he'd be trying his best to identify the schools that are looking for students like him. Instead he's apparently pushing ED at a middling public university. At the very least this counselor needs to be doing his due diligence to identify which of the top schools offer the best aid and are working the hardest to diversify their classes. As I posted earlier, there is a HUGE diversity in the Ivies with respect to economic and cultural diversity. Some schools are trying hard to diversify, some not so hard. It doesn't sound like this counselor is on the ball.

That said, OP needs to be strategic here. Whatever the reason for this counselor's suggestions, it is probably not going to work in her favor to alientate him with accusations of discrimination. OP probably just needs to take the lead in doing all of the research the counselor is not doing and then inform the counselor in a non-confrontational way about schools she thinks are good options, and take it from there. Hopefully it won't be necessary to go over his head.

You seem awfully certain that the college counselor is not doing his/her best for the student, based on the parent's view of what has transpired. You don't (because you can't) know the full story. For example:

1. The parent implied that one wouldn't know the child was of Latino heritage (maybe an Anglicized last name, for example). Have they told the counselor of this?
2. The parent thinks the child has a highly competitive GPA -- the parent may not know the range or where their child's GPA fits.
3. The parent thinks the child is in the top 5 - 10 students (or percentage) of the class, but the school doesn't rank. Maybe the school has said "your child is in the top 10% of the class" or "you are in the top 5 students in your class," but if the school has not done this, the parent is assuming and could be wrong.
4. You don't know how the child's schedule compares with other good students. If they are taking a less demanding track, then the good GPA might still not be enough to have them considered one of the top students if the other students in the same range have much more difficult coursework on their transcript.
5. With a 2200 board, that could be in the top 30-40% of SAT scores, depending upon how strong a school this is. SAT scores now, with prep and the ability to take the test multiple times, can be quite high.
6. It does not sound like the child was a national merit semifinalist -- how many others were in the class?

Overall, it sounds like OP's son is a very strong candidate. The counselor may be underestimating him (particularly if he is an underrepresented minority), but may also be accurately assessing his chances and trying to encourage the family not to fixate on only HYPS. We have no way of knowing for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.

What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.

So you think privilege doesn't exist?

I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.

If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."

But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.

Wow, you must be new to this world.

No, I'm not new to this world. I've met good people in college counseling whom I respect greatly. I have also seen some counselors go to extraordinary lengths on behalf of "ordinary' kids, including finding scholarship opportunities (for example the POSSE scholarships) that take a lot of additional work on the counselor's part but have helped made college much more affordable. I don't consider myself naive -- I am not blind to the idea that privilege may play a part in other parts of independent school life (squeaky wheel gets the grease principle) but, again, in the college counseling process I've seen many counselors go the extra mile precisely to help the families that are not as sophisticated in the process.

Right, the problem here is that this counselor does not seem to be doing his best for the unique profile of the OP's son. I'd think that as a minority, top 10% student, solid SAT scores, sports, research, that he'd be trying his best to identify the schools that are looking for students like him. Instead he's apparently pushing ED at a middling public university. At the very least this counselor needs to be doing his due diligence to identify which of the top schools offer the best aid and are working the hardest to diversify their classes. As I posted earlier, there is a HUGE diversity in the Ivies with respect to economic and cultural diversity. Some schools are trying hard to diversify, some not so hard. It doesn't sound like this counselor is on the ball.

That said, OP needs to be strategic here. Whatever the reason for this counselor's suggestions, it is probably not going to work in her favor to alientate him with accusations of discrimination. OP probably just needs to take the lead in doing all of the research the counselor is not doing and then inform the counselor in a non-confrontational way about schools she thinks are good options, and take it from there. Hopefully it won't be necessary to go over his head.

You seem awfully certain that the college counselor is not doing his/her best for the student, based on the parent's view of what has transpired. You don't (because you can't) know the full story. For example:

1. The parent implied that one wouldn't know the child was of Latino heritage (maybe an Anglicized last name, for example). Have they told the counselor of this?
2. The parent thinks the child has a highly competitive GPA -- the parent may not know the range or where their child's GPA fits.
3. The parent thinks the child is in the top 5 - 10 students (or percentage) of the class, but the school doesn't rank. Maybe the school has said "your child is in the top 10% of the class" or "you are in the top 5 students in your class," but if the school has not done this, the parent is assuming and could be wrong.
4. You don't know how the child's schedule compares with other good students. If they are taking a less demanding track, then the good GPA might still not be enough to have them considered one of the top students if the other students in the same range have much more difficult coursework on their transcript.
5. With a 2200 board, that could be in the top 30-40% of SAT scores, depending upon how strong a school this is. SAT scores now, with prep and the ability to take the test multiple times, can be quite high.
6. It does not sound like the child was a national merit semifinalist -- how many others were in the class?

Overall, it sounds like OP's son is a very strong candidate. The counselor may be underestimating him (particularly if he is an underrepresented minority), but may also be accurately assessing his chances and trying to encourage the family not to fixate on only HYPS. We have no way of knowing for sure.

Also, colleges are increasingly going away from blind reliance on URM status and doing more of a socio-economic inquiry. If the child has two Central American university-educated parents (even if educated outside of the USA), the colleges may not consider the child in the same category with the first generation Latino student whose parents did not have a strong academic background.

[Anonymous]

Very sensible 17.06. I was just reading another thread about unweighted vs weighted GPAs. One plus of weighting is it creates a numerical measure of relative rigor that parents can use in situations like these. The idea that all classes are comparable in rigor within a so-called top private these days is largely anachronistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've watched admissions for several years now and I can assure you all that it's not the traditionally smartest who get into HPY etc. Each year, most of the spots at those schools are filled by athletes and legacies. The strong athlete with a B+ average always trumps the unhooked A student. The A students go to middlebury, Williams, Amherst and end up very happy and successful.

Uh, no. With smaller student bodies, more of the spots are filled by athletes and legacies at schools like Amherst and Williams. You have it completely backwards, but maybe it makes you feel better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Very sensible 17.06. I was just reading another thread about unweighted vs weighted GPAs. One plus of weighting is it creates a numerical measure of relative rigor that parents can use in situations like these. The idea that all classes are comparable in rigor within a so-called top private these days is largely anachronistic.

Interesting. I can see that not weighting makes GPA comparison less edifying when it comes to college admissions, given that (as I understand it) colleges do give significant weight to course rigor.