S/O Let's just talk about Islamic headscarves/hijabs/abayas here, shall we?

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, you are saying over and over that is not Islam, those behaviors are not being done in the name of Islam.

But if large numbers of muslims over and over are saying that it is indeed mandated by Islam, that they are doing these violent acts because their religion tells them to, that women do not deserve rights because that is what Islam says, and then back it up with lassages from the Koran, then who are we to not believe what they say at face value?

At least for those large numbers of people, that IS what Islam teaches.

I don't see the large number, you're talking about. Are they Muslims who bridge those things? Yes but they are not the majority at all, not even close to it.. Also, you are confusing Muslims with Islam. There is 1.6Billion Muslims in the world. You should check the Gallup poll that they did"what do a Billion Muslims think" I attached a link to the documentary that you can watch for free in am earlier post.. None of them gave any of the responses you did. Gallup also did another poll where they only focused on Muslim Women in Muslim countries and this is what they found:
"In sharp contrast to the popular image of silent submissiveness, Gallup findings on women in countries that are predominantly Muslim or have sizable Muslim populations hardly show that they have been conditioned to accept second-class status. Majorities of women in virtually every country we surveyed say that women deserve the same legal rights as men, to vote without influence from family members, to work at any job they are qualified for, and even to serve in the highest levels of government"

Islam must be judged on its own merits and not on the behavior of Muslims. Islam is a perfect system because it was created by God, just as we were. We, however, were not created perfect. Muslims have free will and we choose our ways of life and make our own decisions; sometimes they are the correct decisions and sometimes they aren’t.

[Anonymous]

Muslim conquest of India bloodiest in history:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b49_1178839005

[Anonymous]

Just be ause they say they deserve those thing does not mean that they are receiving them.

Any woman hidden away and imprisoned in a Saudi burka requiring family could say in a survey that women deserve normal basic freedoms. It doesn't mean anything based on what she is required to do because of Islam and how it is practiced in that society.

The survey is really irrelevant when you look at the actual society.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:Just be ause they say they deserve those thing does not mean that they are receiving them.

Any woman hidden away and imprisoned in a Saudi burka requiring family could say in a survey that women deserve normal basic freedoms. It doesn't mean anything based on what she is required to do because of Islam and how it is practiced in that society.

The survey is really irrelevant when you look at the actual society.

Well following your thought process, the country is also irrelevant since they don't follow Islamic teachings. On the Islamic Index which shows how a country's laws, economy and social values are in line with Islamic law Saudi Arabia came at the 91th place in the world, so not a beacon of Islamic law. Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic" state, yes the majority is Muslim but they are not even close to being am Islamic state.

[Anonymous]

Hassle in the UK:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/16/uk-debate-muslim-veils_n_3935701.html

Wasting taxpayer dollars on driver license photos:
http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=40&f=00&su=p284.13.342.ip_&tt=12&bt=6&bts=25&zu=http%3A//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2970514.stm

Does TSA take them to a private room? That is staff time and money. Testing sites?

Public schools with designated rooms for prayers and washing? Any CCD or Hebrew classes on-site?

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:Hassle in the UK:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/16/uk-debate-muslim-veils_n_3935701.html

Wasting taxpayer dollars on driver license photos:
http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=40&f=00&su=p284.13.342.ip_&tt=12&bt=6&bts=25&zu=http%3A//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2970514.stm

Does TSA take them to a private room? That is staff time and money. Testing sites?

Public schools with designated rooms for prayers and washing? Any CCD or Hebrew classes on-site?

I don't agree with this. These women who choose to cover their faces should take it off when required by law, they have to abide to the law like any other citizen.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It pisses me off no end to go somewhere on a hot summer day and see little girls in long sleeves and jeans. That's just miserable and inappropriate for the weather. It's abusive. If you have to put your kids in wrist-to-ankle clothing, you could at least put them in a thin linen or khaki or cotton outfit. It's especially awful at a theme park like Six Flags, when the family is going to be there all day.

I don't care much about what adult women do, but when I see a grown woman in the US in a full black outfit, rather than just a head scarf, I have to think that there is a bit of a "fuck you" to American culture. Her family is trying to make sure that we understand that they don't approve of our culture. It's a bit rude.

You must be a very angry person. Do send us a photo of yourself and your children so we can all try to look like you and be like you so there's no chance of the rest of us being anti-American. First children are not required to wear the hijab, second the way parents choose to dress their children has nothing to do with you. The fact that you say there is a big fuck you to american culture when a grown woman chooses to dress the way she wants shows your narrowmindness. On a side note you are a perfect example of how liberalism and secularism are just the same as the ideologies they oppose. "Liberalism" - you can be anything you want, as long as you are liberal. "Secularism" - you can believe anything you want, as long as those beliefs are secular.

Not particularly.

I would object to kids dressed without winter coats in winter weather, too. Jeans and a long sleeve cotton/spandex shirt in the summer in most of the US is not appropriate. It's too heavy and too hot. Parents could at least make an effort to dress those girls in light pants and shirts, but they don't. It's abusive. Over-heating, dehydration and heat stroke are real issues even when dressed appropriately. It's a worse issue when the kids are wearing jeans. Kids are everyone's concern, not just the parents.

As far as adults go, we require our American military women to dress in the full black outfit when they are in Saudi, because it's respectful of our hosts. Our reporters wear headscarves when they are reporting from Muslim countries. Our First Ladies frequently wears headscarves when visiting Muslim countries. The refusal of some Muslim women to modify their dress from the full black outfit to something more similar to what Americans wear when they are here is disrespectful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It pisses me off no end to go somewhere on a hot summer day and see little girls in long sleeves and jeans. That's just miserable and inappropriate for the weather. It's abusive. If you have to put your kids in wrist-to-ankle clothing, you could at least put them in a thin linen or khaki or cotton outfit. It's especially awful at a theme park like Six Flags, when the family is going to be there all day.

I don't care much about what adult women do, but when I see a grown woman in the US in a full black outfit, rather than just a head scarf, I have to think that there is a bit of a "fuck you" to American culture. Her family is trying to make sure that we understand that they don't approve of our culture. It's a bit rude.

Does this apply to everyone who chooses to wear all black and cover their head? I saw a young woman (I think) out yesterday in the heat.. head to toe black. Black jeans, black long sleeved shirt, black boots and a black scarf wrapped around her head. Not a hijab or anything like that -- just head to toe black. Was she also saying fuck you to American culture? Is it more appropriate to wear butt-bearing shorts and a bikini top?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It pisses me off no end to go somewhere on a hot summer day and see little girls in long sleeves and jeans. That's just miserable and inappropriate for the weather. It's abusive. If you have to put your kids in wrist-to-ankle clothing, you could at least put them in a thin linen or khaki or cotton outfit. It's especially awful at a theme park like Six Flags, when the family is going to be there all day.

I don't care much about what adult women do, but when I see a grown woman in the US in a full black outfit, rather than just a head scarf, I have to think that there is a bit of a "fuck you" to American culture. Her family is trying to make sure that we understand that they don't approve of our culture. It's a bit rude.

Does this apply to everyone who chooses to wear all black and cover their head? I saw a young woman (I think) out yesterday in the heat.. head to toe black. Black jeans, black long sleeved shirt, black boots and a black scarf wrapped around her head. Not a hijab or anything like that -- just head to toe black. Was she also saying fuck you to American culture? Is it more appropriate to wear butt-bearing shorts and a bikini top?

So, you don't see a different between a woman wearing a full abaya and a girl in black jeans?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It pisses me off no end to go somewhere on a hot summer day and see little girls in long sleeves and jeans. That's just miserable and inappropriate for the weather. It's abusive. If you have to put your kids in wrist-to-ankle clothing, you could at least put them in a thin linen or khaki or cotton outfit. It's especially awful at a theme park like Six Flags, when the family is going to be there all day.

I don't care much about what adult women do, but when I see a grown woman in the US in a full black outfit, rather than just a head scarf, I have to think that there is a bit of a "fuck you" to American culture. Her family is trying to make sure that we understand that they don't approve of our culture. It's a bit rude.

Does this apply to everyone who chooses to wear all black and cover their head? I saw a young woman (I think) out yesterday in the heat.. head to toe black. Black jeans, black long sleeved shirt, black boots and a black scarf wrapped around her head. Not a hijab or anything like that -- just head to toe black. Was she also saying fuck you to American culture? Is it more appropriate to wear butt-bearing shorts and a bikini top?

So, you don't see a different between a woman wearing a full abaya and a girl in black jeans?

No difference if each is wearing what she wants to wear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's sort of sad how every thread related to Islam ultimately becomes a debate about headscarves. But I guess to many of us it is an interesting topic.

To me, it's somewhat upsetting that a religious observance involves covering a woman's head, of all things. Like, what is immodest or sexually appealing about a head of hair? Some women certainly have fabulous hair, but still....

When I see a family where the man is wearing a t-shirt and shorts, and the woman is covered head to toe, I can't help but believe that this particular belief creates a double standard and overemphasizes women's bodies as sexual objects. I'm not a huge fan of women of other religions wearing haircoverings and the like, either.=

Most people do not have a single issue with the scarf thing.

It is when it extends to arms, feet, fingers, faces, etc that gets us all up in arms.

That and the fact that it is dictated by men who have little regard for women, and that it often goes along with a lot of other subjugation of women.

When you have the power to make another human being into an invisible shadow with no rights, you are adding a lot of evil to the world.[/quote]

This

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The question I have, at least, for Muslim women, is what is the purpose of being covered? What is the spiritual significance, what is the spiritual benefit?

There are a myriad of reasons why, but the easy, one sentence answer is, because they believe God has made it an obligation for believing women. Muslims believe that their sole purpose in life is the worship of God alone, according to His instructions, as revealed in the Holy Quran, and through the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). As such, wearing the hijab is an act of obedience to God and, hence, forms the primary basis for wearing it.In Islam, hijab is not demanded of women by men but is ordered upon women by the Merciful Ever-Living.

It is an outward symbol of an inward spiritual reality and aspiration. It is not a political flag for the Islamic state, it is not a sign of women’s subjugation to men, it is not a litmus test for religiosity, and it is not a measure of a woman’s piety, family background, ect . It is also important to note that though the term hijab is usually translated as "scarf" , it encompasses more than a scarf and more then a dress code. It is a term that denotes modest dressing and modest/good behavior, manners, speech and appearance in public. The headscarf is an outer manifestation of an inner commitment to worshipping Allah , it symbolizes a commitment to piety. Self or inner morality is what gives meaning to the external scarf. This can be perceived from the overall demeanor of any Muslim woman, how she acts, dresses, speaks, and so on.

Hijab can also be for some a sign of great inner strength and fortitude. A woman wearing hijab becomes a very visible sign of Islam. While Muslim men can blend easily into any society, Muslim women are often put on the line, and forced to defend not only their decision to cover, but also their religion. Nevertheless, women who wear hijab insist that the advantages far outweigh any disadvantage conjured up by media bias or general ignorance.

And I think that's all fine if it's not legally required, or required in practice if you want to walk down the street unmolested.

[Anonymous]

To each his own.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The question I have, at least, for Muslim women, is what is the purpose of being covered? What is the spiritual significance, what is the spiritual benefit?

There are a myriad of reasons why, but the easy, one sentence answer is, because they believe God has made it an obligation for believing women. Muslims believe that their sole purpose in life is the worship of God alone, according to His instructions, as revealed in the Holy Quran, and through the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). As such, wearing the hijab is an act of obedience to God and, hence, forms the primary basis for wearing it.In Islam, hijab is not demanded of women by men but is ordered upon women by the Merciful Ever-Living.

It is an outward symbol of an inward spiritual reality and aspiration.

Ok, I get that it is a religious observance, and an outward sign that you're "spiritual," but other than that, is there anything to it? Why would God request this particular action? What spiritual benefit is there to the actual action? And why aren't men given an analogous way of being spiritual? Or are they? I guess how I feel, is that this is something way too trivial for God to ask women to do unless there is a real spiritual benefit. This is my issue with a lot of tenets of Islam- there are lots of rules and obedience and obligation, and no joy to it, no "fruits" of spirituality. What is that spiritual benefit?

And you may say "hey, this shows the world that you are Muslim," but there's another side- in a Muslim country, not covering your hair shows that you are non-Muslim, and leads to a feeling of intimidation. I've experienced this myself, and I've known women who were told, outright, that they are in a Muslim country, it doesn't matter that they're Christian, a native of that country who never wore a hijab, they need to wear a hijab now. So, yeah, since you don't know any woman who has been forced to wear it, would that count as your first example?

Well if you read what I wrote, I said "I never met one who was forced to wear it, but that doesn't mean they do not exist, but that is not the norm"

Now, why would God require this? God defines and God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness, and not in their sameness, and in However way He Chooses. Hijab is a symbol of our worship and servitude to Allah.But, since you asked, before we have a true and complete understanding of hijab and its real meaning, one needs to take a step back and start at the beginning. Allah says in the Quran (The Words of Allah), what means:

“We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them for a (mere) play.”

[Al-Anbiy?', 21:16]

In this verse Allah makes clear that everything He created has a purpose. Every star in the sky, every fish in the ocean, and every leaf on a tree was made for a specific reason. So too was the human being created for a specific purpose. Allah explains this purpose clearly in the Quran. He says what means:

“And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.”

[Adh-Dh?riyat, 51:56]

It is important to note even the construction of this statement. Allah did not just say that He created jinn and mankind to worship Him. He began with a negation. He said: "I did not create the jinn and mankind." By saying it in this way, Allah begins by clearing the board from any other purpose before He states what our one and only purpose is: to worship Him and Him alone. Now, it is in that context that one should begin to understand the subject of hijab. Hijab should properly be seen as simply another show of devotion to our Creator. Just as we pray and fast because He commanded us to do so, we view hijab in the very same light.

Just as praying and fasting sincerely for Allah's pleasure brings us closer to Him, so too does wearing hijab, if done with the same sincerity. By obeying Allah's commandments, hijab is just another way to worship our Lord. And in so doing, it brings us closer to realizing our purpose of creation. Of course, to you someone who doesn't believe in Islam, this has no spiritual benefit, nobody can clearly explain the sweetness and taste of faith and peace that comes to the heart of the person who feels them when they truly believe! I don't understand why you are saying there is no joy to it, do you think muslim women who wear the hijab are miserable when they wear it? you can't believe that there is a sense of calmness, peace and happiness that they feel when they are practicing their religion? By Allah, I wish you could feel the joy in my heart when I obey one of His commands, and feel so blessed, so close to him that I cry out of amazement!

The issue I see is that you are putting too much emphasis on the outward aspects of religion and not enough on the inward; the outward is just the reflection of the inward, of course if the inward is non-existent, you will be resentful, angry, miserable, because you dont believe in what you are doing. But for the believer, her hijab is a “statement” that she loves God more than “society’s standards of beauty and fashion.” Her submission is to something higher than those things.

I really don't know how to explain it to you, it is an act of Love towards the creator, just like you choosing to do something for your husband that you love, people might look at you and say "woow that's crazy" , but because of your love towards him, you feel great joy and pleasure in doing it and nobody can explain that feeling!

As someone raised Catholic this sound to me like what we would call "our cross to bear".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To each his own.

That's right. And to each HER own. And as long as the woman is free to choose, I support her choice.