African American kids at schools being taunted about racial features.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the phrase "black sheep" comes from the Middle Ages, in England. It has to do with agriculture, namely sheep, and the rarity and market value of having a dark-wooled sheep in the flock.

Race, or skin tone if you will, has absolutely nothing to do with the history or evolution of the phrase.

I thought this was just an expression.

It is. That's why this thread has generated so much anti-PC-run-amok backlash.

[Anonymous]

I think the point is being missed about terms like "black sheep," the black face on the comedy/tragedy symbols, and black market, I could go on. The point the PP made about racism being so deeply ingrained is demonstrated in these terms. As an AA, I am not asking you not to use these terms. I am merely pointing out that even within our language, blackness or darkness is frequently associated with bad or negative things. Lightness and brightness are associated with good or positive. Hence, even children associate these negatives concepts when they see darker skin. If you would think more critically about the point, you will understand where people are coming from, instead of arguing over political correctness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the point is being missed about terms like "black sheep," the black face on the comedy/tragedy symbols, and black market, I could go on. The point the PP made about racism being so deeply ingrained is demonstrated in these terms. As an AA, I am not asking you not to use these terms. I am merely pointing out that even within our language, blackness or darkness is frequently associated with bad or negative things. Lightness and brightness are associated with good or positive. Hence, even children associate these negatives concepts when they see darker skin. If you would think more critically about the point, you will understand where people are coming from, instead of arguing over political correctness.

THANK YOU! I'm the PP who brought up black sheep, cartoon characters in black face, flesh colored crayons and Barbie Dolls of color with the hope of making some people realize that language often shapes our thinking process. I can't believe how much the discussion strayed and suddenly turned into a discussion about PC language!

The PP said it best in the last line. So instead of leafing through your old college notes to trace the history of a word or phrase, have some respect regarding the feelings of others. If you're so inclined to argue your point, then have an open discussion without being condescending. I am now much more aware of what comes out of my mouth b/c I've had open dialogues with many of my pals. But more importantly, I've been made aware of exactly how my mind works. Instead of driving on "autopilot" when I speak, I'm in complete control over how I'm handling my language.

Look at it this way: Our lives are shaped by metaphor. Up is good; down is bad - "I'm on a high" versus "I'm feeling low." And just as the PP stated, dark is often viewed as being negative. "Come on over to the dark side."

Try thinking about your thinking. It's enlightening.

[Anonymous]

Last night, apropos of nothing, my 4 year old dd said "I think all boys should be dark and all girls should be light". After a little prodding it turned out she was referring to skin tone. This was the first sign that she was even aware of race and I am pretty bummed. I told her it would be boring if that were true and it's best that everyone has different skin color. I don't think it really penetrated though and wonder if I should pursue it more or whether that would make it a bigger deal (and perhaps have the wrong effect) than it needs to be at this age. Any advice? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the point is being missed about terms like "black sheep," the black face on the comedy/tragedy symbols, and black market, I could go on. The point the PP made about racism being so deeply ingrained is demonstrated in these terms. As an AA, I am not asking you not to use these terms. I am merely pointing out that even within our language, blackness or darkness is frequently associated with bad or negative things. Lightness and brightness are associated with good or positive. Hence, even children associate these negatives concepts when they see darker skin. If you would think more critically about the point, you will understand where people are coming from, instead of arguing over political correctness.

Great comment. Thanks for making it. I totally agree. If I am hearing you correctly, I think you're suggesting that people should think twice when about how their comments might be interpreted (or perhaps even misinterpreted) on such hot button issues as race. So before using the phrase "black sheep," a person should think about whether someone else might be offended and perhaps pick a similar phrase ("odd duck" maybe?) that might not carry such baggage. The thing to focus on is not what the speaker said, but what the listener heard. The bottom line is to be considerate. Don't most of us try to be considerate like this in other (non-race) contexts? For example, you don't use the phrase "dead as a doornail" when you're talking to someone who just lost a relative, even though that's "technically" not offensive, because that's not considerate of the other person's feelings. The reverse is true too though -- someone who hears a comment she perceives as having negative connotations should give the benefit of the doubt to the person who made the comment, and assume she was not trying to offend. So if you hear someone use the phrase "black sheep," it's not very considerate to call her out in public and make her look bad -- better to mention it in private if at all.

What do you think?

[Anonymous]

To the OP (if you're still reading) ...

Thanks for this post. You encouraged me to engage my kindergartener in a discussion about race this weekend. And I will do so again. I am embarrassed that I hadn't had a talk with her before.

So thanks again.

[Anonymous]

16:43 -- I agree. Makes good sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the point is being missed about terms like "black sheep," the black face on the comedy/tragedy symbols, and black market, I could go on. The point the PP made about racism being so deeply ingrained is demonstrated in these terms. As an AA, I am not asking you not to use these terms. I am merely pointing out that even within our language, blackness or darkness is frequently associated with bad or negative things. Lightness and brightness are associated with good or positive. Hence, even children associate these negatives concepts when they see darker skin. If you would think more critically about the point, you will understand where people are coming from, instead of arguing over political correctness.

THANK YOU! I'm the PP who brought up black sheep, cartoon characters in black face, flesh colored crayons and Barbie Dolls of color with the hope of making some people realize that language often shapes our thinking process. I can't believe how much the discussion strayed and suddenly turned into a discussion about PC language!

The PP said it best in the last line. So instead of leafing through your old college notes to trace the history of a word or phrase, have some respect regarding the feelings of others. If you're so inclined to argue your point, then have an open discussion without being condescending. I am now much more aware of what comes out of my mouth b/c I've had open dialogues with many of my pals. But more importantly, I've been made aware of exactly how my mind works. Instead of driving on "autopilot" when I speak, I'm in complete control over how I'm handling my language.

Look at it this way: Our lives are shaped by metaphor. Up is good; down is bad - "I'm on a high" versus "I'm feeling low." And just as the PP stated, dark is often viewed as being negative. "Come on over to the dark side."

Try thinking about your thinking. It's enlightening.

We're going to have to agree to disagree because I refuse to view "dark" as a universal negative. Dark is not bad, dark is dark. This is not a point I am going to concede, nor is it a word I will cease to use.

I have thought about my thinking. One among many conclusions is that just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm unenlightened. You don't have ownership of the moral high ground.

[Anonymous]

So....can we all agree we are racists and let this thread go for a while?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So....can we all agree we are racists and let this thread go for a while?

You can assert that you are a racist and I doubt anyone will correct you. You really have no place speaking for the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the point is being missed about terms like "black sheep," the black face on the comedy/tragedy symbols, and black market, I could go on. The point the PP made about racism being so deeply ingrained is demonstrated in these terms. As an AA, I am not asking you not to use these terms. I am merely pointing out that even within our language, blackness or darkness is frequently associated with bad or negative things. Lightness and brightness are associated with good or positive. Hence, even children associate these negatives concepts when they see darker skin. If you would think more critically about the point, you will understand where people are coming from, instead of arguing over political correctness.

THANK YOU! I'm the PP who brought up black sheep, cartoon characters in black face, flesh colored crayons and Barbie Dolls of color with the hope of making some people realize that language often shapes our thinking process. I can't believe how much the discussion strayed and suddenly turned into a discussion about PC language!

The PP said it best in the last line. So instead of leafing through your old college notes to trace the history of a word or phrase, have some respect regarding the feelings of others. If you're so inclined to argue your point, then have an open discussion without being condescending. I am now much more aware of what comes out of my mouth b/c I've had open dialogues with many of my pals. But more importantly, I've been made aware of exactly how my mind works. Instead of driving on "autopilot" when I speak, I'm in complete control over how I'm handling my language.

Look at it this way: Our lives are shaped by metaphor. Up is good; down is bad - "I'm on a high" versus "I'm feeling low." And just as the PP stated, dark is often viewed as being negative. "Come on over to the dark side."

Try thinking about your thinking. It's enlightening.

We're going to have to agree to disagree because I refuse to view "dark" as a universal negative. Dark is not bad, dark is dark. This is not a point I am going to concede, nor is it a word I will cease to use.

I have thought about my thinking. One among many conclusions is that just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm unenlightened. You don't have ownership of the moral high ground.

Agree with this PP. As another PP said (with whom I also agree), it is undoubtedly true that even in Africa, children fear the dark, which has nothing to do with skin color.

[Anonymous]

To 22:21 and 22:31, you can say that we will agree to disagree, but I don't give definitions to words. I merely accept them. You can go to any dictionary and look up the definition of dark. Here are the first set of definitions that I got from Google. And this is just a cut and paste. I did not add any or leave any out:

devoid of or deficient in light or brightness; shadowed or black; "sitting in a dark corner"; "a dark day"; "dark shadows"; "dark as the inside of ...
(used of color) having a dark hue; "dark green"; "dark glasses"; "dark colors like wine red or navy blue"
brunet (used of hair or skin or eyes); "dark eyes"
black: stemming from evil characteristics or forces; wicked or dishonorable; "black deeds"; "a black lie"; "his black heart has concocted yet another black deed"; "Darth Vader of the dark side"; "a dark purpose"; "dark undercurrents of ethnic hostility"; "the scheme of some sinister intelligence ...
secret; "keep it dark"
showing a brooding ill humor; "a dark scowl"; "the proverbially dour New England Puritan"; "a glum, hopeless shrug"; "he sat in moody silence"; "a morose and unsociable manner"; "a saturnine, almost misanthropic young genius"- Bruce Bliven; "a sour temper"; "a sullen crowd"
benighted: lacking enlightenment or knowledge or culture; "this benighted country"; "benighted ages of barbarism and superstition"; "the dark ages"; "a dark age in the history of education"
absence of light or illumination
marked by difficulty of style or expression; "much that was dark is now quite clear to me"; "those who do not appreciate Kafka's work say his style is obscure"
iniquity: absence of moral or spiritual values; "the powers of darkness"
darkness: an unilluminated area; "he moved off into the darkness"
blue: causing dejection; "a blue day"; "the dark days of the war"; "a week of rainy depressing weather"; "a disconsolate winter landscape"; "the first dismal dispiriting days of November"; "a dark gloomy day"; "grim rainy weather"
colored: having skin rich in melanin pigments; "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People"; "dark-skinned peoples"
night: the time after sunset and before sunrise while it is dark outside
not giving performances; closed; "the theater is dark on Mondays"
an unenlightened state; "he was in the dark concerning their intentions"; "his lectures dispelled the darkness"


Again, no one is asking you not to use the word. I am merely pointing out how even our language may have an impact on our racial attitudes.

[Anonymous]

Can I use the term "black hole" as in "giving that project to Mary is like sending it into a black hole?"

[Anonymous]

While I am not black, I can understand the "black sheep" thing. What is "Yellow peril"? Remember Americans used to call Native Americans Red savages?

Language needs to evolve with the times. I mean, we don't use the word "gay" the same way they did in the 1920 and 1930s, right? Saying, "He's such a gay fellow," means something so different now then 80 years ago. Or, "What a "randy" couple." Randy now refers to a first name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can I use the term "black hole" as in "giving that project to Mary is like sending it into a black hole?"

As someone named Mary, I take offense.