African American kids at schools being taunted about racial features.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the phrase "black sheep" comes from the Middle Ages, in England. It has to do with agriculture, namely sheep, and the rarity and market value of having a dark-wooled sheep in the flock.

Race, or skin tone if you will, has absolutely nothing to do with the history or evolution of the phrase.

That's a great historical note, but if someone is having issues with a phrase, why use it? Would you continue to use it in front of a person of color if s/he took offense at it? Or would you give him/her a short lecture on its historical evolution? Who knows how twisted the meaning of a word or phrase becomes as it moves through the ages? Look at the original meaning of the N word - stingy, miserly. still have the same meaning today? I think not.

Granted, in the classroom, I'd use it as a teaching moment, which I have done in the past with the whole idea of how night (darkness) was associated with bad. But I'm not going to get into teaching mode while conversing with a colleague. People have their own experiences with language, and we should keep that in mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the phrase "black sheep" comes from the Middle Ages, in England. It has to do with agriculture, namely sheep, and the rarity and market value of having a dark-wooled sheep in the flock.

Race, or skin tone if you will, has absolutely nothing to do with the history or evolution of the phrase.

That's a great historical note, but if someone is having issues with a phrase, why use it? Would you continue to use it in front of a person of color if s/he took offense at it? Or would you give him/her a short lecture on its historical evolution? Who knows how twisted the meaning of a word or phrase becomes as it moves through the ages? Look at the original meaning of the N word - stingy, miserly. still have the same meaning today? I think not.

Granted, in the classroom, I'd use it as a teaching moment, which I have done in the past with the whole idea of how night (darkness) was associated with bad. But I'm not going to get into teaching mode while conversing with a colleague. People have their own experiences with language, and we should keep that in mind.

1. The original meaning of the N word was nothing of the kind; you are confusing that with the word niggardly, which DOES mean stingy, and which has absolutely nothing to do with the N word, linguistically or historically. So you are quite in error.

2. Yes, as a matter of fact, if I were to use the word niggardly, or the term black sheep, and someone took offense, I would indeed give them a mini-lesson on the true origin/meaning of the word/term. I would obviously never use actual racist terms, but having to avoid perfectly normal words and expressions just because others might just possibly erroneously take offense is, in my mind, political correctness run amok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Granted, in the classroom, I'd use it as a teaching moment, which I have done in the past with the whole idea of how night (darkness) was associated with bad. But I'm not going to get into teaching mode while conversing with a colleague. People have their own experiences with language, and we should keep that in mind.

As I understand it, night/darkness being associated with badness is because of the fears of things happening in the dark which one cannot see (monsters, etc.); it has nothing to do with skin color. C'mon, I'm quite certain that even in Africa, there is an association of night/darkness with fear, foreboding, etc. Surely one won't argue that African children do not fear the night the way Caucasian children do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the phrase "black sheep" comes from the Middle Ages, in England. It has to do with agriculture, namely sheep, and the rarity and market value of having a dark-wooled sheep in the flock.

Race, or skin tone if you will, has absolutely nothing to do with the history or evolution of the phrase.

That's a great historical note, but if someone is having issues with a phrase, why use it? Would you continue to use it in front of a person of color if s/he took offense at it? Or would you give him/her a short lecture on its historical evolution? Who knows how twisted the meaning of a word or phrase becomes as it moves through the ages? Look at the original meaning of the N word - stingy, miserly. still have the same meaning today? I think not.

Granted, in the classroom, I'd use it as a teaching moment, which I have done in the past with the whole idea of how night (darkness) was associated with bad. But I'm not going to get into teaching mode while conversing with a colleague. People have their own experiences with language, and we should keep that in mind.

I don't support post-modernism in literature, and likewise, I certainly wouldn't edit my language of perfectly normal words because someone thinks that words have individual subjective meanings. Words have actual, real meanings, period. Words do evolve over time, of course, but at any given moment in time, words have specific meanings; it is simply not so that words can mean whatever you want them to mean. Thus I am not even sure what the PP meant in saying that "people have their own experiences with language."

[Anonymous]

having to avoid perfectly normal words and expressions just because others might just possibly erroneously take offense is, in my mind, political correctness run amok.

exactly. How are you even supposed to know in advance which non-epithet words have a secret meaning? serious question.

That whole "niggardly" brewhaha a few years ago, where a DC gov't appointee was forced to resign after using the word correctly in a sentence was the high/low water mark I think.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the phrase "black sheep" comes from the Middle Ages, in England. It has to do with agriculture, namely sheep, and the rarity and market value of having a dark-wooled sheep in the flock.

Race, or skin tone if you will, has absolutely nothing to do with the history or evolution of the phrase.

That's a great historical note, but if someone is having issues with a phrase, why use it? Would you continue to use it in front of a person of color if s/he took offense at it? Or would you give him/her a short lecture on its historical evolution? Who knows how twisted the meaning of a word or phrase becomes as it moves through the ages? Look at the original meaning of the N word - stingy, miserly. still have the same meaning today? I think not.

Granted, in the classroom, I'd use it as a teaching moment, which I have done in the past with the whole idea of how night (darkness) was associated with bad. But I'm not going to get into teaching mode while conversing with a colleague. People have their own experiences with language, and we should keep that in mind.

1. The original meaning of the N word was nothing of the kind; you are confusing that with the word niggardly, which DOES mean stingy, and which has absolutely nothing to do with the N word, linguistically or historically. So you are quite in error.

2. Yes, as a matter of fact, if I were to use the word niggardly, or the term black sheep, and someone took offense, I would indeed give them a mini-lesson on the true origin/meaning of the word/term. I would obviously never use actual racist terms, but having to avoid perfectly normal words and expressions just because others might just possibly erroneously take offense is, in my mind, political correctness run amok.

PP, I have to disagree. If a term is offensive, even if it is misinterpreted like niggardly, it should not be used.
I am a doctor, and the medical term for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. However, I would never walk into a patients room and say, "Oh, I see you had two spontaneous abortions". The word makes people uncomfortable. Correct term, wrong audience.
As another example, I used to breed dogs. My females were bitches, and I used that term freely around breeders, but I would not say it at a ladies tea party. Correct term, wrong audience.

[Anonymous]

I'm not PP, but you have a good point. OTOH, I think everyone here could guess that 'bitch' and 'abortion' might conjure up negative feelings -- that's easy to guess. 'Niggardly,' too, is an easy-to-guess one, and I personally would just use the word 'miserly' most of the time. Why not?

But, I'm personally not going to walk on eggshells and avoid using everyday words in appropriate context that *sometimes* are used to describe skin color offensively by bigots. aka, my brother is a black sheep of the family . It's a dark night tonight, huh?

[Anonymous]

I can't believe what I've been reading! Who cares what the official history of a word/phrase is? WHO has the right to lecture someone on the history of a word when a person has taken offense at its use???

How condescending! Your are indeed proving that racism is ingrained. Rather than trying to understand another person's perspective, you're throwing around mini lessons as a way to "enlighten" others! Acting superior is a great way to conquer racism and prejudice!

And post-modernism in literature???!! Yeah - that's the way to connect with others!

[Anonymous]

not the PP you're responding to, 22:48, but how does this feel: I am really offended that you just used the world "official" in your post. I am white, and my husband is Jewish, and when people like you use the word "official," it offends us because it reminds him of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany. You may not have known that, not having a Jewish grandfather living in Germany in the 1930s -- but now you do. in So please understand our perspective and stop using the word "official" when you speak around us.

- - -

tell me, where is this going to end? and don't say it's stupid -- ending the use of the word "official" is no less stupid than saying "black sheep" is forbidden.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:not the PP you're responding to, 22:48, but how does this feel: I am really offended that you just used the world "official" in your post. I am white, and my husband is Jewish, and when people like you use the word "official," it offends us because it reminds him of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany. You may not have known that, not having a Jewish grandfather living in Germany in the 1930s -- but now you do. in So please understand our perspective and stop using the word "official" when you speak around us.

- - -

tell me, where is this going to end? and don't say it's stupid -- ending the use of the word "official" is no less stupid than saying "black sheep" is forbidden.

Well . . . DOES it offend you? When you hear it, does it make your skin crawl? If so, I would hope that you would call me on it. Now, what I am questioning is ". . . when people like you. . ." - which means?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe what I've been reading! Who cares what the official history of a word/phrase is? WHO has the right to lecture someone on the history of a word when a person has taken offense at its use???

How condescending! Your are indeed proving that racism is ingrained. Rather than trying to understand another person's perspective, you're throwing around mini lessons as a way to "enlighten" others! Acting superior is a great way to conquer racism and prejudice!

And post-modernism in literature???!! Yeah - that's the way to connect with others!

Sorry, but taking offense at something is not a free-pass. "I am offended, therefore I shall decide what words get used and how." It doesn't work that way. People should not be cowed into absurdity because others might take offense. The offendee is not the arbiter of how the world works, sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe what I've been reading! Who cares what the official history of a word/phrase is? WHO has the right to lecture someone on the history of a word when a person has taken offense at its use???

How condescending! Your are indeed proving that racism is ingrained. Rather than trying to understand another person's perspective, you're throwing around mini lessons as a way to "enlighten" others! Acting superior is a great way to conquer racism and prejudice!

And post-modernism in literature???!! Yeah - that's the way to connect with others!

Sorry, but taking offense at something is not a free-pass. "I am offended, therefore I shall decide what words get used and how." It doesn't work that way. People should not be cowed into absurdity because others might take offense. The offendee is not the arbiter of how the world works, sorry.

Please stop using the word "cowed." I understand that it means "intimidated" and has nothing to do with bovines, but I need to lose a few pounds and I am offended at the word's use even though my offense has nothing to do with the real meaning of the word. Please remove that word from your vocabulary pronto, and don't even think of explaining to me the real use of the word, or I will lecture you on how insensitive you are and tell you that you have no right to challenge me, because I AM OFFENDED.


"

[Anonymous]

Can we all agree that children don't need to be told that there is something wrong with their hair because it is not straight?

This is a pervasive issue. I saw a Rapunzel puppet show at Glen Echo in which all of the good characters were lighter skinned with small noses. The bad guys were darker skinned (not black) with large hooked noses. Kids watching this get some funny ideas in their heads about good and evil.

It is also a difficult issue as I can tell by the previous post that are dancing around it discussing vocabulary.

[Anonymous]

1. The original meaning of the N word was nothing of the kind; you are confusing that with the word niggardly, which DOES mean stingy, and which has absolutely nothing to do with the N word, linguistically or historically. So you are quite in error.

2. Yes, as a matter of fact, if I were to use the word niggardly, or the term black sheep, and someone took offense, I would indeed give them a mini-lesson on the true origin/meaning of the word/term. I would obviously never use actual racist terms, but having to avoid perfectly normal words and expressions just because others might just possibly erroneously take offense is, in my mind, political correctness run amok.

Oh good! Me too. So glad not to be alone in this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the phrase "black sheep" comes from the Middle Ages, in England. It has to do with agriculture, namely sheep, and the rarity and market value of having a dark-wooled sheep in the flock.

Race, or skin tone if you will, has absolutely nothing to do with the history or evolution of the phrase.

That's a great historical note, but if someone is having issues with a phrase, why use it? Would you continue to use it in front of a person of color if s/he took offense at it? Or would you give him/her a short lecture on its historical evolution? Who knows how twisted the meaning of a word or phrase becomes as it moves through the ages? Look at the original meaning of the N word - stingy, miserly. still have the same meaning today? I think not.

Granted, in the classroom, I'd use it as a teaching moment, which I have done in the past with the whole idea of how night (darkness) was associated with bad. But I'm not going to get into teaching mode while conversing with a colleague. People have their own experiences with language, and we should keep that in mind.

I don't support post-modernism in literature, and likewise, I certainly wouldn't edit my language of perfectly normal words because someone thinks that words have individual subjective meanings. Words have actual, real meanings, period. Words do evolve over time, of course, but at any given moment in time, words have specific meanings; it is simply not so that words can mean whatever you want them to mean. Thus I am not even sure what the PP meant in saying that "people have their own experiences with language."

Excellent point, thank you. I'm reminded of a splendid quote by the late Senator Daniel Moynihan "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that doesn't mean they're entitled to their own facts."