Lower Middle Class VS Upper Middle Class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Lower middle class is a family of 3-4 making between $150,000 and 250,000. The people who are really struggling to get by.

We are at the low end of this and not struggling a bit. We vacation several times a year, and live in a nice townhome in a nice VA neighborhood, good school district. Reasonable, safe cars. Good health care. Decent clothes, reasonable phone plans (no smart phones). Out to eat about once a month. We raise our own kids, clean our own home, cut our own lawn, garden our own area.

Happy family, good life.

It CAN be done in this area. But most people would rather live on credit outside their means and also farm out the necessities and then cry about how they struggle.

It was a joke.

Have you read any of the threads here on DCUM about what constitutes middle class? It is mind boggling that so many people in this area making in excess of $250K consider themselves struggling middle class.

They aren't middle class. They are people with budgeting/spending issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You again?

Before we begin, you must remember that this is dcum.

Lower middle class is a family of 3-4 making between $150,000 and 250,000. The people who are really struggling to get by.

Middle class is a family making in the realm of $300,000 +/- (but usually plus)

Upper middle class is a family making around $400,000-500,000.

Just so we are clear.

I think that this is ALL WRONG.

Over $500,000 is middle class (otherwise known as "comfortable").
$200,000-$500,000 is lower middle class (otherwise known as "struggling").
$125,000-$200,000 is poor (otherwise known as "poor").
Less than $125,000 is either "trailer park" or "ghetto", depending on your race.

There are also, theoretically, families who are rich -- but since they live in small houses and drive old cars, nobody knows who they are.

There is also the minority view that household income has nothing to do with how wealthy you are, since how wealthy you are is a function of what you can afford, and nobody can afford a middle-class lifestyle in the DC area, therefore nobody is middle class even with a household income of over $500,000 -- but let's ignore them for now.

Correction-hope your don't mind me taking a moment to educate you. The proper term is "the poor" not "poor".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The biggest difference I have noticed is that upper middle class people are obsessed with providing what they perceive to be the best for their kids...from organic food to limiting screen time, to Suzuki lessons at age 4, to Montessori preschool, to private and/or the best public schools in high SES locations. They are concerned with their kids going to the best fit/most competitive college than can go to irregardless of cost. They also fret about saving in 529s and what corners they can cut so that they can make private high school an option. They consider international travel to be an important, culturally enriching experience that children should have. They fret over whether or not it is damaging to the psyche for their kid to grow up without a yard, or whether it is justifiable to live in a condo so they can ride the metro to preschool and walk to the farmer's market. They tend to be relentless helicopter parents.

Lower middle class tend to be more laid back about junk food, less concerned about THE BEST schools, and more about living someplace that fits the needs and budget and has the right fit for their families. They tend to not freak out about having the TV on all the time and about too much Dora time. They don't think to scour Greatschools.com to figure out all the options they have and whether nor not the greatschools rating is a 9 or a 10, and just move into a nice, middle class neighborhood and sent their kids to the most convenient neighborhood school. They encourage education, but going in state to get in state tuition, rather than freaking out about getting into ivies or if their kid isn't competitive enough to get into ivies "the best fit school." They frequently don't save in 529s, either because they paid for college and they expect their kids to as well with loans, or because they are just making enough to get by, and there isn't any left over to save for college. Sometimes it is taken as a point of pride that their kids have "skin in the game" and not everything "handed to them." The same is said for weddings and other life expenses that are not within their budget--not helping them financially is a mark of developing self-sufficiency.

[b]You are lower middle class, because you used "irregardless."[/[/b]quote]

And because you likely shop at "stores for poors"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I recently skimmed the Paul Fussell book. 'Skimmed' because I have a toddler and work full time. I was raised 'High Prole,' according to his scheme, which is a LMC strata.

Granted, Class was written 30 years ago, and high prole is now the entire tech industry, having come into its own. The part that amused me most was where Fussell observed that high proles are really into ideas whereas the true upper class hate ideas because they can only mean trouble. It was all ideas all the time at our house, strange foods, museum memberships, hippy summer camps, foreign films, science fairs, friend that couldn't really speak English because parents were on postdocs from abroad, and early adopting all tech stuff. As children we regularly attended lecture series, the symphony and various avant garde dance troupes. Education was highly valued and you were expected to be superior, which we were because, hey - high prole.

Nonetheless we are definitely prole.

I love your upbringing, PP. This is what I'm trying to give my children, first and foremost: curiosity, love of learning and interest in ideas.
We are also proles, by your definition, and proud of it.

As for OP's original question, my in-laws are very "lower middle class" in their mindsets, however, they are pretty comfortable financially, more comfortable than DH and I will ever be. All my MIL talks about is coupons, discounts, and savings. Luckily, they live 5 hours away, so I don't get to enjoy her company that often..but when I do, it's hard to keep my mouth shut. Here's an example: my SIL (who really took after her mother in a lot of ways) is undergoing chemo for a pretty advanced form of cancer, so, whenever MIL calls, we always discuss SIL's current condition. Yesterday SIL says: "You know, Mary's lost a lot weight recently, close to 25 pounds". I said something along the lines of: "Chemo's side effects are awful, but, hopefully, they will go away with time", and MIL jumps in: "Exactly! That's why Mary says, she's not going to buy herself any new clothes, since she'll be putting all that weight back on! But right now she's walking around with her pants falling off of her, she has to borrow belts from her husband. But she's determined not to waste any money".

Please. A pair of cheap jeans is 20 dollars at Marshall's, and you don't have to 'borrow' anyone's belts. There's only one explanation I can offer to this bizarre behavior: these people value 'saving money' over pretty much anything else in the world. And this is pretty sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently skimmed the Paul Fussell book. 'Skimmed' because I have a toddler and work full time. I was raised 'High Prole,' according to his scheme, which is a LMC strata.

Granted, Class was written 30 years ago, and high prole is now the entire tech industry, having come into its own. The part that amused me most was where Fussell observed that high proles are really into ideas whereas the true upper class hate ideas because they can only mean trouble. It was all ideas all the time at our house, strange foods, museum memberships, hippy summer camps, foreign films, science fairs, friend that couldn't really speak English because parents were on postdocs from abroad, and early adopting all tech stuff. As children we regularly attended lecture series, the symphony and various avant garde dance troupes. Education was highly valued and you were expected to be superior, which we were because, hey - high prole.

Nonetheless we are definitely prole.

I love your upbringing, PP. This is what I'm trying to give my children, first and foremost: curiosity, love of learning and interest in ideas.
We are also proles, by your definition, and proud of it.

As for OP's original question, my in-laws are very "lower middle class" in their mindsets, however, they are pretty comfortable financially, more comfortable than DH and I will ever be. All my MIL talks about is coupons, discounts, and savings. Luckily, they live 5 hours away, so I don't get to enjoy her company that often..but when I do, it's hard to keep my mouth shut. Here's an example: my SIL (who really took after her mother in a lot of ways) is undergoing chemo for a pretty advanced form of cancer, so, whenever MIL calls, we always discuss SIL's current condition. Yesterday SIL says: "You know, Mary's lost a lot weight recently, close to 25 pounds". I said something along the lines of: "Chemo's side effects are awful, but, hopefully, they will go away with time", and MIL jumps in: "Exactly! That's why Mary says, she's not going to buy herself any new clothes, since she'll be putting all that weight back on! But right now she's walking around with her pants falling off of her, she has to borrow belts from her husband. But she's determined not to waste any money".

Please. A pair of cheap jeans is 20 dollars at Marshall's, and you don't have to 'borrow' anyone's belts. There's only one explanation I can offer to this bizarre behavior: these people value 'saving money' over pretty much anything else in the world. And this is pretty sad.

The fact that you would have anything other than compassion for a SIL with cancer suggests that you have no class, so we don't need to mess around with the LMC and UMC crap.

Please confirm this was tongue-in-cheek satire of UMC class obsession. Then we can all have a glass of wine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our household income is 105k. I stay home. Husband is home by 5 or 6 pm. We have five kids 12 and under in a 4 bathroom 2 bathroom ranch. Public schools. We don't invest in 529s and plan to encourage skilled trades or entrepreneurship- if college, community college first. We live way out of the way, have a little ranch on 2.5 acres and a 9 pound dog from the humane society.

We have 3 4 wheelers and a vintage moped that the kids and husband play with in our yard. I have birth at at home. We don't eat organic and don't eat processed foods at home. Mostly lean meats/chicken/salmon and veggies. Minimal starches, no pasta, crackers, breads. The kids are in scouts and all do an activity together once a week. They are in some after school academic clubs. Lots of white space on the calendar.

We shop at goodwill and wear very nice secondhand clothes. We & the kids call all adults by first name unless very elderly and sweet folks, whom we call mr or mrs first name.

We both have bachelors degrees.

We paid off our little house ($320k) and have a house ($320k) our old house in the Midwest also paid off, as a rental.

We don't have cable, do have iPhones and a landline, go out to eat at least once a week, get each kid 6-7 gifts at Christmas and birthdays.

What class am I?

Solidly middle class. Salt of the earth, ye are!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently skimmed the Paul Fussell book. 'Skimmed' because I have a toddler and work full time. I was raised 'High Prole,' according to his scheme, which is a LMC strata.

Granted, Class was written 30 years ago, and high prole is now the entire tech industry, having come into its own. The part that amused me most was where Fussell observed that high proles are really into ideas whereas the true upper class hate ideas because they can only mean trouble. It was all ideas all the time at our house, strange foods, museum memberships, hippy summer camps, foreign films, science fairs, friend that couldn't really speak English because parents were on postdocs from abroad, and early adopting all tech stuff. As children we regularly attended lecture series, the symphony and various avant garde dance troupes. Education was highly valued and you were expected to be superior, which we were because, hey - high prole.

Nonetheless we are definitely prole.

I love your upbringing, PP. This is what I'm trying to give my children, first and foremost: curiosity, love of learning and interest in ideas.
We are also proles, by your definition, and proud of it.

As for OP's original question, my in-laws are very "lower middle class" in their mindsets, however, they are pretty comfortable financially, more comfortable than DH and I will ever be. All my MIL talks about is coupons, discounts, and savings. Luckily, they live 5 hours away, so I don't get to enjoy her company that often..but when I do, it's hard to keep my mouth shut. Here's an example: my SIL (who really took after her mother in a lot of ways) is undergoing chemo for a pretty advanced form of cancer, so, whenever MIL calls, we always discuss SIL's current condition. Yesterday SIL says: "You know, Mary's lost a lot weight recently, close to 25 pounds". I said something along the lines of: "Chemo's side effects are awful, but, hopefully, they will go away with time", and MIL jumps in: "Exactly! That's why Mary says, she's not going to buy herself any new clothes, since she'll be putting all that weight back on! But right now she's walking around with her pants falling off of her, she has to borrow belts from her husband. But she's determined not to waste any money".

Please. A pair of cheap jeans is 20 dollars at Marshall's, and you don't have to 'borrow' anyone's belts. There's only one explanation I can offer to this bizarre behavior: these people value 'saving money' over pretty much anything else in the world. And this is pretty sad.

It's not sad at all if living a simple life is what brings one joy. There's a big movement right now to borrow and repurpose and not just buy buy buy, pp. Many people embrace and enjoy a simpler lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

I dunno about middle or upper middle, but I do know that the very very rich and the very very poor have eerily similar habits. My childhood was welfare, food stamps, homeless shelter, parents-in-prison ridden. After a lovely invitation to an ivy league school, I landed briefly into what one would call the upper middle class, but im hoping this sojourn will be brief as I'm trying my darndest to stop working before 45 (started own company) and just eat bonbons all day, smoke weed/make cocktails at home, and travel to weird places with my hubby.

It doesn't matter what your income is, the worst "class" is when you are beholden to work for someone else for your pay. I have homeless friends and wealthy friends who don't work through inheritances, and although everyone has problems, these groups tend to be the least anal, uptight, or worried. Probably because neither group has to get up and go to work every day.

Just my two cents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People who grew up lower middle class and come into money somehow, are the ones who are buying up the McMansions. They are ugly, lack character, and are cheaply built. They are only worth the land they are built on. You can buy one in DC or on the Main Line in PA for several million dollars. Move a bit further out to rural PA or somewhere not as urban as DC and they sell for $200k. Open your eyes people.

Hear Hear

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Although it's slightly dated now, one of the best books on this subject is Paul Fussell's "Class". An easy read. Only thing I don't like is his reluctance to put himself into one of these classes and creating a small "other" class of Northeastern academics who transcend his class descriptions.

You know he wrote that book as a humor book right? He was an English professor who studied WW1 literature. He has two social critique books that are tongue-in-cheek.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I dunno about middle or upper middle, but I do know that the very very rich and the very very poor have eerily similar habits. My childhood was welfare, food stamps, homeless shelter, parents-in-prison ridden. After a lovely invitation to an ivy league school, I landed briefly into what one would call the upper middle class, but im hoping this sojourn will be brief as I'm trying my darndest to stop working before 45 (started own company) and just eat bonbons all day, smoke weed/make cocktails at home, and travel to weird places with my hubby.

It doesn't matter what your income is, the worst "class" is when you are beholden to work for someone else for your pay. I have homeless friends and wealthy friends who don't work through inheritances, and although everyone has problems, these groups tend to be the least anal, uptight, or worried. Probably because neither group has to get up and go to work every day.

Just my two cents.

+++++!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Although it's slightly dated now, one of the best books on this subject is Paul Fussell's "Class". An easy read. Only thing I don't like is his reluctance to put himself into one of these classes and creating a small "other" class of Northeastern academics who transcend his class descriptions.

You know he wrote that book as a humor book right? He was an English professor who studied WW1 literature. He has two social critique books that are tongue-in-cheek.

I don't think that people do know that.

Here is a way-too-long piece about it from 2009 by Sandra Tsing Loh, who used to be funny.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/03/class-dismissed/307274/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You again?

Before we begin, you must remember that this is dcum.

Lower middle class is a family of 3-4 making between $150,000 and 250,000. The people who are really struggling to get by.

Middle class is a family making in the realm of $300,000 +/- (but usually plus)

Upper middle class is a family making around $400,000-500,000.

Just so we are clear.

I think that this is ALL WRONG.

Over $500,000 is middle class (otherwise known as "comfortable").
$200,000-$500,000 is lower middle class (otherwise known as "struggling").
$125,000-$200,000 is poor (otherwise known as "poor").
Less than $125,000 is either "trailer park" or "ghetto", depending on your race.

There are also, theoretically, families who are rich -- but since they live in small houses and drive old cars, nobody knows who they are.

There is also the minority view that household income has nothing to do with how wealthy you are, since how wealthy you are is a function of what you can afford, and nobody can afford a middle-class lifestyle in the DC area, therefore nobody is middle class even with a household income of over $500,000 -- but let's ignore them for now.

Guess I'm considered ghetto being an AA single mom with 3 kids living in a DC row house which I bought myself being a GS 14 in the fed gov driving a Toyota Camry. Welp, guess all that's missing is food stamp.

Understood glad to see someone else in my category

[Anonymous]

The mindset of the lower middle class and working class are pretty similar. It is a very different mindset from those in the upper middle class.

-UMC grow up expecting to be college educated. It's not some distant dream and they don't need to be pushed to do it. It's a basic expectation.

-UMC choose where to buy a house based on real estate values, school districts, safety, etc. whereas LMC tend to want to stay close to their family even if it means sacrificing school district or safety.

-UMC places value on traveling, both domestic and international. Road trips are commonplace when the children are young (when feasible) to allow the kids to see more things. An ideal vacation for a LMC family is to take the kids to Disney (via plane) or to vacation in Vegas.

-LMC take pride in brand names and logos. UMC have understated, elegant things that may be designer or name brand, but you wouldn't know it because their things don't have logos plastered all over them (I'm talking to you women who carry Coach purses with the infamous "C" logo all over the bag... You shop at TJ Maxx, we get it)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Although it's slightly dated now, one of the best books on this subject is Paul Fussell's "Class". An easy read. Only thing I don't like is his reluctance to put himself into one of these classes and creating a small "other" class of Northeastern academics who transcend his class descriptions.

You know he wrote that book as a humor book right? He was an English professor who studied WW1 literature. He has two social critique books that are tongue-in-cheek.

I don't think that people do know that.

Here is a way-too-long piece about it from 2009 by Sandra Tsing Loh, who used to be funny.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/03/class-dismissed/307274/

I always thought Fussell was more about the old vs. new money distinction, than the lower-middle-upper class distinctions. His point was that anybody can pull off the "old money" image (Chevy Chase shack, old oriental rugs, inherited antiques and silverware). Sure, it was humorous, but it was based on solid observations so there's definitely some substance behind the humor. I agree that putting himself in some made-up class of uber-cool academics was a cop-out....