Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian, I find the complaints about the supposed war on Christmas to be utterly ridiculous. (I am much more up in arms about the war on Thanksgiving from ever earlier Christmas sales.). But getting up in arms about this issue seems equally ridiculous on the part of Jews.

Ditto. The War on Christmas is more a right-wing political thing. And if we were to get upset about something silly like that, then we'd have to feel outrage about other faiths and atheists appropriating our eggs, bunnies, trees and presents. But I don't know anyone who cares about these supposed "thefts" from our faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian, I find the complaints about the supposed war on Christmas to be utterly ridiculous. (I am much more up in arms about the war on Thanksgiving from ever earlier Christmas sales.). But getting up in arms about this issue seems equally ridiculous on the part of Jews.

I'm an atheist, but I get invited to church functions sometimes. A couple of years ago, not wanting to offend anyone, I went up to take the communion wafer. What was really weird was that some of the Catholics I was with actually got offended. No idea why this would be.

Yeah, nobody want to turn this into a catholic-bashing thread. Your effort is, um, amazing, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian, I find the complaints about the supposed war on Christmas to be utterly ridiculous. (I am much more up in arms about the war on Thanksgiving from ever earlier Christmas sales.). But getting up in arms about this issue seems equally ridiculous on the part of Jews.

I'm an atheist, but I get invited to church functions sometimes. A couple of years ago, not wanting to offend anyone, I went up to take the communion wafer. What was really weird was that some of the Catholics I was with actually got offended. No idea why this would be.

Really? And this has WHAT, exactly, to do with this topic? Agree this is a pretty lame attempt to turn yet another thread into a Catholic bash.

[Anonymous]

Another Jew here. I too find it strange that Christians would have seders and call them seders. If they have a commemorative meal around Easter, that's one thing, but to call it a seder implies (to me anyway) that it is the same as or a close variation on a Jewish seder. And that is strange to me. The traditional seder celebrates liberation from bondage and calls upon Jews to remember their history of persecution and slavery, and to work for the coming of the Messiah. Christians, as far as I know, don't have the same cultural memory of persecution, and they believe the Messiah has already come. So how can they hold a traditional seder? It just doesn't compute.

I may be more sensitive than most because in college I had Jewish friends who went to seders held by Jews for Jesus and then tried to convert me, which was intensely uncomfortable. Most Jews really don't do the Jews-for-Jesus thing.

Also, for those who contend that Christian seders are just recreating Jesus' experience ... not if it's based on a modern Jewish seder, they aren't. Historical seders were completely different. The rules were different, the foods were different. Pretty much all religious traditions (other than perhaps the rules of kashruth/keeping kosher) were completely different in the days of the Temple, when Jesus lived. Current religious traditions and rules grew up after the Temple was finally destroyed. Whatever seder Jesus attended wouldn't look anything like a modern seder.

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

[Anonymous]

Jewish NP here. Can someone say more about these christian seders? Which haggadah do they use? Are they on that year's first night of passover or always the thursday before easter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

+1. Jews don't really have the concept of sacrilege, but if we did, that's close to the feeling evoked by Christians trying to understand more about their god by practicing our traditions. Traditions which don't exactly have a history of being accepted by Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another Jew here. I too find it strange that Christians would have seders and call them seders. If they have a commemorative meal around Easter, that's one thing, but to call it a seder implies (to me anyway) that it is the same as or a close variation on a Jewish seder. And that is strange to me. The traditional seder celebrates liberation from bondage and calls upon Jews to remember their history of persecution and slavery, and to work for the coming of the Messiah. Christians, as far as I know, don't have the same cultural memory of persecution, and they believe the Messiah has already come. So how can they hold a traditional seder? It just doesn't compute.

I may be more sensitive than most because in college I had Jewish friends who went to seders held by Jews for Jesus and then tried to convert me, which was intensely uncomfortable. Most Jews really don't do the Jews-for-Jesus thing.

Also, for those who contend that Christian seders are just recreating Jesus' experience ... not if it's based on a modern Jewish seder, they aren't. Historical seders were completely different. The rules were different, the foods were different. Pretty much all religious traditions (other than perhaps the rules of kashruth/keeping kosher) were completely different in the days of the Temple, when Jesus lived. Current religious traditions and rules grew up after the Temple was finally destroyed. Whatever seder Jesus attended wouldn't look anything like a modern seder.

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

What does it matter what you "like" or not? Why should Catholics care if some group of Jews starting celebrating mass? We have freedom of religion ( and from religion) in this country. If you don't approve of what some religious group does, move on and mind your own business. Worship or don't worship any way you want and let others do the same.

[Anonymous]

I was just reading about this "Easter Seder" (stripped down Seder followed by a ham dinner).

http://putthatonyourblog.com/easter-seder-get-ready-get-set/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

+1. Jews don't really have the concept of sacrilege, but if we did, that's close to the feeling evoked by Christians trying to understand more about their god by practicing our traditions. Traditions which don't exactly have a history of being accepted by Christians.

On the contrary, Christians understand that Jesus was Jewish. Jewish traditions were very much a part of Jesus' life, and the Last Supper was a seder. This isn't a new appropriation of the tradition, instead it's something that's been recognized for 2000 years as being integral to the Last Supper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another Jew here. I too find it strange that Christians would have seders and call them seders. If they have a commemorative meal around Easter, that's one thing, but to call it a seder implies (to me anyway) that it is the same as or a close variation on a Jewish seder. And that is strange to me. The traditional seder celebrates liberation from bondage and calls upon Jews to remember their history of persecution and slavery, and to work for the coming of the Messiah. Christians, as far as I know, don't have the same cultural memory of persecution, and they believe the Messiah has already come. So how can they hold a traditional seder? It just doesn't compute.

I may be more sensitive than most because in college I had Jewish friends who went to seders held by Jews for Jesus and then tried to convert me, which was intensely uncomfortable. Most Jews really don't do the Jews-for-Jesus thing.

Also, for those who contend that Christian seders are just recreating Jesus' experience ... not if it's based on a modern Jewish seder, they aren't. Historical seders were completely different. The rules were different, the foods were different. Pretty much all religious traditions (other than perhaps the rules of kashruth/keeping kosher) were completely different in the days of the Temple, when Jesus lived. Current religious traditions and rules grew up after the Temple was finally destroyed. Whatever seder Jesus attended wouldn't look anything like a modern seder.

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

What does it matter what you "like" or not? Why should Catholics care if some group of Jews starting celebrating mass? We have freedom of religion ( and from religion) in this country. If you don't approve of what some religious group does, move on and mind your own business. Worship or don't worship any way you want and let others do the same.

I can like or not like anything I please. I didn't say I would try to legislate against it or prevent people from doing it -- I wouldn't, of course. But I can still be mildly offended or dubious. Catholics or anyone else don't have to care what I think. But should they be curious or want to explore inter-faith cooperation -- as some on this thread have mentioned -- then they might care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

+1. Jews don't really have the concept of sacrilege, but if we did, that's close to the feeling evoked by Christians trying to understand more about their god by practicing our traditions. Traditions which don't exactly have a history of being accepted by Christians.

On the contrary, Christians understand that Jesus was Jewish. Jewish traditions were very much a part of Jesus' life, and the Last Supper was a seder. This isn't a new appropriation of the tradition, instead it's something that's been recognized for 2000 years as being integral to the Last Supper.

So the seder-throwing christians are having historically accurate ones? Similar to how some go to Jerusalem and carry a cross along his route? Or are they going to modern seders and having brisket? which bears no similarity to what Jesus did?

I hope for the Christians' sakes that you are going to seders held by knowledgeable Jewish people who can make you appreciate the KEY DIFFERENCE between Judaism as Jesus practiced it and Judaism now: the destruction of the temple. The Judaism that Jesus practiced is not similar to modern Judaism OR modern Christianity, but for different reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What does it matter what you "like" or not? Why should Catholics care if some group of Jews starting celebrating mass? We have freedom of religion ( and from religion) in this country. If you don't approve of what some religious group does, move on and mind your own business. Worship or don't worship any way you want and let others do the same.

I agree with this post which I'm guessing is from an atheist. What another faith does or doesn't do has no effect on me and my faith, and it certainly doesn't diminish me. Unless it involves the killing of chickens or something (I'm a parrot owner), I really don't care.

[Anonymous]

Catholic here, I went to my first Passover Seder last night at our neighbor's house, what a great experience. Certainly gives me an appreciation for better understanding and respecting the building blocks for Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another Jew here. I too find it strange that Christians would have seders and call them seders. If they have a commemorative meal around Easter, that's one thing, but to call it a seder implies (to me anyway) that it is the same as or a close variation on a Jewish seder. And that is strange to me. The traditional seder celebrates liberation from bondage and calls upon Jews to remember their history of persecution and slavery, and to work for the coming of the Messiah. Christians, as far as I know, don't have the same cultural memory of persecution, and they believe the Messiah has already come. So how can they hold a traditional seder? It just doesn't compute.

I may be more sensitive than most because in college I had Jewish friends who went to seders held by Jews for Jesus and then tried to convert me, which was intensely uncomfortable. Most Jews really don't do the Jews-for-Jesus thing.

Also, for those who contend that Christian seders are just recreating Jesus' experience ... not if it's based on a modern Jewish seder, they aren't. Historical seders were completely different. The rules were different, the foods were different. Pretty much all religious traditions (other than perhaps the rules of kashruth/keeping kosher) were completely different in the days of the Temple, when Jesus lived. Current religious traditions and rules grew up after the Temple was finally destroyed. Whatever seder Jesus attended wouldn't look anything like a modern seder.

So, anyway, I understand where OP is coming from. I can't imagine Catholics would like it if Jews decided to start celebrating mass but did it completely differently from centuries of tradition, and claimed it was still somehow authentic.

Once and for all - it is not intended to be "authentic." Are Jews familiar with the concept of symbolism? You don't like it being called a seder. Fine, we get it. But it truly seems to me that you are purposely misconstruing what it is intended to be just to find something to proclaim offense about.
Furthermore, you at purposely choosing to ignore that Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The reverse is not true. But honestly, if you want to spend your time at Passover proclaiming that Baptists holding a symbolic seder is somehow a modern version of your bondage in Egypt, have at it. I am done trying to explain this and it is clear that nothing anyone can say will assuage your outrage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Catholic here, I went to my first Passover Seder last night at our neighbor's house, what a great experience. Certainly gives me an appreciation for better understanding and respecting the building blocks for Christianity.

Ugh. Glad I didnt invite you to my house.