Marriage Structure and Resistance to the Gender Revolution in the Workplace

[Anonymous]

The issue isn't feminism, it's the larger market and social response. Now that it's more common for women to WOH, the market has responded, housing and other prices have gone up, and most families now need two incomes where they used to need one for a middle class existance. What started out as the ideal of giving women a choice to work is starting to become more of a mandate in middle class families in order to maintain a middle class lifestyle. (I'm in no way talking about the wives of big law attorneys here making the 'sacrifice' but rather the rest of us). And, those of us who don't feel we have a logical choice of staying home, tailor our working lives so we can have as much of it as possible since we know we can't have it all. It is absolutely no surprise to me that my male coworker with a stay at home wife in the same job as I will likely advance further. He doesn't have the distraction of sick kids, day care pick-up, and driving to doctor's appointments taking up his workday. And, I don't blame my employer for this. This is a market and we all have to compete/participate in some way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The issue isn't feminism, it's the larger market and social response. Now that it's more common for women to WOH, the market has responded, housing and other prices have gone up, and most families now need two incomes where they used to need one for a middle class existance. What started out as the ideal of giving women a choice to work is starting to become more of a mandate in middle class families in order to maintain a middle class lifestyle. (I'm in no way talking about the wives of big law attorneys here making the 'sacrifice' but rather the rest of us). And, those of us who don't feel we have a logical choice of staying home, tailor our working lives so we can have as much of it as possible since we know we can't have it all. It is absolutely no surprise to me that my male coworker with a stay at home wife in the same job as I will likely advance further. He doesn't have the distraction of sick kids, day care pick-up, and driving to doctor's appointments taking up his workday. And, I don't blame my employer for this. This is a market and we all have to compete/participate in some way.

+1
I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Anonymous]

My husband is a GS-15 with the federal government. He took 6 weeks of paternity when we had each of our children. The first time he told his boss (older man in the SES, with a stay at home wife) his plans to take off 6 weeks, the man laughed because he thought he was joking. When he realized my husband was serious, he said "What? I took off one afternoon when each of my children were born, because that is when my wife went into labor!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The issue isn't feminism, it's the larger market and social response. Now that it's more common for women to WOH, the market has responded, housing and other prices have gone up, and most families now need two incomes where they used to need one for a middle class existance. What started out as the ideal of giving women a choice to work is starting to become more of a mandate in middle class families in order to maintain a middle class lifestyle. (I'm in no way talking about the wives of big law attorneys here making the 'sacrifice' but rather the rest of us). And, those of us who don't feel we have a logical choice of staying home, tailor our working lives so we can have as much of it as possible since we know we can't have it all. It is absolutely no surprise to me that my male coworker with a stay at home wife in the same job as I will likely advance further. He doesn't have the distraction of sick kids, day care pick-up, and driving to doctor's appointments taking up his workday. And, I don't blame my employer for this. This is a market and we all have to compete/participate in some way.

On a societal level, yes, but in the case of divorce, I woudn't want to be in her boat. Or his.

He also misses out to some degree - my husband does a lot of sick days, doctor appointments, daycare drop offs, classroom volunteer, etc.

Not saying people shouldn't stay home if it works for your family but you are only painting the advantages to your male co-worker. Everything has traded offs. There are disadvantages to that family as well.

[Anonymous]

Re: let's hang all the old white guy partners --

DH and I are both lawyers; we met in law school and married immediately thereafter. He has been a partner in a big firm for nearly 20 years. When our oldest was born, I left my job and was a SAHM for a number of years before returning to work part-time. Throughout his years as a partner he has been very supportive of a number of women associates who have worked for him, including several who have become counsels or partners. Even when I was a SAHM he was aware of the challenges that parents -- both men and women-- face in BigLaw. So, really, not all the old male partners are jerks. However, they do get tired of the kvetching from the younger associates, male and female. And, as a woman who has been a SAHM and a P/T WOHM, I'm pretty tired of it too. Please don't assume that someone whose lifestyle is different from yours has it easy -- we are all facing a difficult battle. Please don't imagine that you are the first generation to cope with the challenges of family life. Please try to remember that you are a grown-up and that grown-ups make choices and live with them. Please keep in mind that it does get easier as your children get older. And, please, try to be grateful for the choices we have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re: let's hang all the old white guy partners --

DH and I are both lawyers; we met in law school and married immediately thereafter. He has been a partner in a big firm for nearly 20 years. When our oldest was born, I left my job and was a SAHM for a number of years before returning to work part-time. Throughout his years as a partner he has been very supportive of a number of women associates who have worked for him, including several who have become counsels or partners. Even when I was a SAHM he was aware of the challenges that parents -- both men and women-- face in BigLaw. So, really, not all the old male partners are jerks. However, they do get tired of the kvetching from the younger associates, male and female. And, as a woman who has been a SAHM and a P/T WOHM, I'm pretty tired of it too. Please don't assume that someone whose lifestyle is different from yours has it easy -- we are all facing a difficult battle. Please don't imagine that you are the first generation to cope with the challenges of family life. Please try to remember that you are a grown-up and that grown-ups make choices and live with them. Please keep in mind that it does get easier as your children get older. And, please, try to be grateful for the choices we have.

I'd be curious to know what you consider "kvetching." This this the type of *complaining* that eventually led law firms to offer parental leave, onsite daycare, emergency daycare?

Also, I'm sorry, but if your DH is a law partner, and you've had the means to SAH or WOTH part-time (not full-time), then it may be harder for you and DH to empathize with dual working families without the financial lubrication that makes your lives more manageable.

True that some lawyers are more sympathetic than others, but again, self-perception can different than than reality.

[Anonymous]

i think it depends on the boss. i worked for a fairly underhanded guy for several years. he had a SAH wife and was pretty traditional when it came to marriage. however, he authorized full and utter flexibility to me when it came to maternity leave and taking time off when i returned to work. he was very explicit in his belief that family came first for all his employees. of course, when it came to promotions, he did not consider me compared to my male colleagues. he was and is a walking contradiction. just wanted to point out that this subject is very nuanced.

[Anonymous]

Who cares about nuances? Those kinds of bosses needed to be out of a job yesterday. Zero tolerance.

[Anonymous]

Researchers conducted four separate studies using four different methodologies to test their hypothesis on a total of 718 married, male men. While we can’t draw irrefutable conclusions based on these studies, the results are interesting

The types of questions posed were things such as, "On a scale of 1 to 5..., do you think this company is organized and runs efficiently?" showing a picture of a female led organization.

Why are so many of you immediately pointing to childcare issues as the clear singular explanation? It can’t be bias, it must be childcare issues!

Some employees have full time childcare at home, others do not. Many working women, who work long hours, have full-time live-in and overnight nannies, if necessary. What about all the single women in the workplace who chose not to have children?

This is subtle sexism about women's capabilities and societal roles, not a childcare problem.

I’m not out to hang the old, white guy partners. It’s not personal, it’s societal. When we are aware of societal bias, we are better equipped to more objectively evaluate all employees.

[Anonymous]

Well put, 11:40.

[Anonymous]

I am the only two- working household parent among my co-workers, luckily my husband is an equal parent and takes the kids to the doctor, stays home when they are sick, etc.... We usually just see discuss who has a busier day and whoever can more easily miss the day, takes off. I try really hard to take my turn coming in early, staying late, etc... During busy times. I also am very careful to have reliable and great childcare. I do know of some work g Mom's who never seem to have their shit together and I think they can give the rest of us a bad name. I also work with several men whose wife's stay-at-home and they definitely have a different view of busy than i do.... , I don't think they are as involved with their kids as my husband is, but then I am not as involved with my kids at their SAHWs.

Although, I recently got a new upper level boss whose wife works too and I can already see an improvement.

[Anonymous]

To me the essence of feminism is choices. Nobody tells us we have to be a mom, or SAHM, or work, or WOHM. I can wear a burqua or a bikini, MY choice. I can have multiple sexual partners or none at all. And of course, I have to be responsible for the choices I make, as should the men who make those choices with me. Or maybe I choose a woman for a partner. MY choice.

If women want to ensure choice for themselves and their daughters, the best thing we can advocate for is high quality, affordable child care and public education. Reproductive choice. Equitable divorce laws, heaven forbid your DH has a midlife crisis and you suddenly find yourself as a solitary wage earner and care giver.

I thank god for my education and ability to provide for my kids despite my ex having totally flaked out on us. I am no lawyer but I can afford a perfectly nice life and a single family home in a good school system. The American Dream is working for me. I'm less worried about my older white male boss than I am the Republican party. I feel very threatened by the reactionary reproductive legislation I see going on right now. Birth control, abortion, slut shaming - if we lose control of our wombs then we lose control of our destiny. I chose to have children but I do see that that for many women more so than men, that choice can be similar to a career-ending injury. You will never be the unfettered machine you were pre-babies. And these men who are competing with us now in the workplace know that.