Risks of attending a “Reach” school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From Malcolm Gladwell - there are a lot of MIT Business majors that started as STEM majors. You judge yourself with those around you - at top tier school you are likely at the bottom. He gave an example of a Brown Bio major who dropped out but in retrospect she thought if she went to UMD she'd have a PHD in the field.

Likely the other way around.

I was going to say, why didn't she just go to slacker UMD and skate her way to that PhD?

The bad news is that a PhD at a less-prestigious institution is just as much work as at a more prestigious one, but with far less chance of getting an academic job afterwards.

Switch majors after your freshman year, though, and there’s a 0% chance you’ll get an academic job in the field.

That’s what Gladwell is talking about: if a kid who would be 25th percentile at Brown but 75th percentile at UMD goes to Brown, they get four years of discouragement and negative feedback, even though they’re objectively one of the best (that’s how they got into Brown) and would have been recognized as such at UMD. Not a lot of people have the emotional resilience to take four years of constant discouragement without getting thoroughly discouraged.

Getting into reaches feels great. Attending them is often a different story.

Malcolm Gladwell is the consummate self promoter and comes up with punchy “research-based” topics that sell. He knows this idea will land well with people. It’s exactly the affirmation people want.

I would not take his word as gospel.

If you happen to get into a reach school and can afford it, you should not be scared.

[Anonymous]

These people who keep saying doing well at STEM at UMD is easier than at Brown clearly know very little about UMD. It's very challenging and hard to get into and the kids are driven. There are a lot of GPA requirements and weed out classes in most of the STEM majors. And there are a lot of distribution requirements. (Source: two kids there in STEM majors)

Brown, in contrast, has a very liberal grading policy that allows kids to take things pass fail, drop a class easily, no distribution requirements, etc. There's a lot less room to mess up there. (Source: Brown alums)

So just stop with acting like Brown kids are so much smarter and more driven that UMD kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know Jeff Selingo isn’t universally loved here but his Dream School book had a stat that stuck with me: for every 10 point higher SAT score your peers have at college, it increases the likelihood of dropping out by like 2-3%

I wish I would have made note of the study he referenced.

This is not to say, attending reach schools is a bad idea IMO. But, if you do, I think it’s important to be able to be prepared for what that might feel like

Sure. I attended Harvard and had to contend with weaker preparation compared to the elite private school kids, and imposter syndrome as a first-gen student who had no concept of how this daunting new system worked. Was it challenging, in every sense? Yes. Did I learn resilience and perseverance, together with some humility? Also yes. Those qualities were even more beneficial to my professional life than the academics.

It sounds trite, but it is essential to cultivate a growth mindset in your child and allow for mistakes along the way. But I am a big fan of the growth that stems from competing with a high-performing peer group. For the right temperament and with the right support---also feel perfectly good about avoiding overly toxic environments.

+1000

The trick, as a parent, is to know if your kid is ready to handle that experience.

Some 18-21 year old kids already have that resilience or are ready to push through and develop it, if necessary. You were, and I was, too.

Others are not there yet and would do much better in a less challenging environment. At least to start. If it goes well, they can take more challenging classes as they progress.

[Anonymous]

My student is a freshman at their reach school, which is a highly selective state flagship. They had a strong GPA in high school and lots of rigor, but were just below the reach school’s 25th percentile for SAT scores. They also have ADHD. First semester has been a big learning curve. It’s hard to tell how much is ADHD-related versus how much is that they’re in a couple of notorious STEM weed out classes. They’re finding their footing and doing well in the non-weed out classes, but it has been stressful. I do think the learning curve would have been less if they were at a small reach private school instead of a state flagship…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These people who keep saying doing well at STEM at UMD is easier than at Brown clearly know very little about UMD. It's very challenging and hard to get into and the kids are driven. There are a lot of GPA requirements and weed out classes in most of the STEM majors. And there are a lot of distribution requirements. (Source: two kids there in STEM majors)

Brown, in contrast, has a very liberal grading policy that allows kids to take things pass fail, drop a class easily, no distribution requirements, etc. There's a lot less room to mess up there. (Source: Brown alums)

So just stop with acting like Brown kids are so much smarter and more driven that UMD kids.

No one is comparing UMD to Brown; the comparison is coming from a book quoting a woman who attended Brown but also got into UMD. The woman is a lawyer with decades of experience. The UMD vs Brown she is talking about happened decades ago before the book got published ' the book was published decades prior. so we maybe talking 1980s or even 1970s. Who knows what things were like back then but that wasn't the point.

the main point is the effects of: big fish in small pond or small fish in big pond. That's it.

[Anonymous]

My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

Thanks for sharing. This is my DD’s top choice and I have a ton of concerns about the rigor of RPI.

How much do you think it’s him being engaged in the academics vs. maturing? What year is he?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

NP - my kid is at a different school, different major, etc, but the last line is spot on for mine as well. The tricky thing is you can't really know if they will rise to the occasion until they get there.

[Anonymous]

Not working hard in HS does not mean not capable or bright. DC did not work hard in rigorous HS classes and was warned the same level of effort in college would be insufficient but that ball was in their court without parental monitoring. In college, worked enough to maintain GPA in pre-med classes.

[Anonymous]

If the OP thinks her kid doesn't work hard may or may not be correct. As a parent of two ADHD kids, they are both have different presentations with their ADHD and both have had to get executive function training. One spent a semester working with an ADHD EF coach and picked up all the skills he needed. The other has a harder time applying the skills, so still struggles- so would caution labeling them as a hard worker or not. Look for schools with 'resource centers'. I have a family member who teaches at a law school and notes that many of the students in the Master's program for the juris master's program- so not a law degree- praise the resource center as a valuable tool in getting through the program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the OP thinks her kid doesn't work hard may or may not be correct. As a parent of two ADHD kids, they are both have different presentations with their ADHD and both have had to get executive function training. One spent a semester working with an ADHD EF coach and picked up all the skills he needed. The other has a harder time applying the skills, so still struggles- so would caution labeling them as a hard worker or not. Look for schools with 'resource centers'. I have a family member who teaches at a law school and notes that many of the students in the Master's program for the juris master's program- so not a law degree- praise the resource center as a valuable tool in getting through the program.

OT: Why would someone get a "juris masters" rather than a JD? Are you saying LLM?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

Thanks for sharing. This is my DD’s top choice and I have a ton of concerns about the rigor of RPI.

How much do you think it’s him being engaged in the academics vs. maturing? What year is he?

He's a sophomore. I definitely noticed the maturation senior year of HS. He had by far his best year academically and seemed more engaged in his classes. Some of that was because he was able to take more classes he was interested in, since he'd completed his HS requirements and was taking mostly electives.

He's wanted to be an aerospace engineer since middle school and never wavered on that, so I think him being engaged in his coursework also helps. And in college he just kind of developed a routine and stuck with it. Gets up early every weekday. Works out at the gym if he doesn't have an early class. Found good places to study. One benefit of RPI is a lot of the kids are taking the same classes, since the vast majority are STEM majors, so it's easy to find study partners or, if you befriend upperclassmen, people who have taken the class and can share their wisdom. I should mention specifically--he also heard from classmates that a certain required class was A BEAR at RPI, and avoid if at all possible. So he took the class this past summer at our local community college and RPI accepted the transfer credit.

The strange thing is that my current HS senior DC seems to have the exact same trajectory. Slacked off a lot in HS. Unfocused. Executive function difficulties. Then . . . started senior year with his best grades by far . . . knows what he wants to do in college and applied accordingly, but his grades were simply not good enough to apply to some schools that otherwise would have been good fits. Maybe I should have just redshirted all these boys.

Best of luck to your DD!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

NP - my kid is at a different school, different major, etc, but the last line is spot on for mine as well. The tricky thing is you can't really know if they will rise to the occasion until they get there.

This. We discouraged super-high-stats DC from applying to an Ivy, because we thought they weren't mature enough to deal with the intensely competitive vibe or sufficiently confident to advocate for themselves. We encouraged a WASP instead, with the academic rigor but a collaborative more than competitive vibe. Fit, and meeting your kid where they are, is so important. But we still didn't know if they could handle the transition, rise to the challenge of academics at that level etc. Fortunately it's going very well but we had no idea whether they would sink or swim, could only hope for the best in the end. It could have gone the other way, always some luck involved in terms of decent dorm situation, nice roommate, good professors etc. as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

NP - my kid is at a different school, different major, etc, but the last line is spot on for mine as well. The tricky thing is you can't really know if they will rise to the occasion until they get there.

One thing I can say is that his high school prepared him better for college than my high school prepared me, and that gave me some confidence he would do OK. I went to a T20 because I got almost straight As in HS without really working very hard. But when I went to college I was not prepared for the workload, and I had really poor study skills. Also I partied too much. I did not do well at all freshman year. My son's high school was more rigorous because they are preparing for virtually all their graduates to go to 4-year colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends RPI in the Aerospace Engineering program. He had just under a 3.3 GPA in HS and did not take any Honors or AP math or science classes in HS. He got mostly Bs in his CP classes. The only APs he took were the Computer Science ones. He definitely considered it a reach (he did not get into VT, FWIW). His grades were often hurt by turning things in late or not at all.

I can only assume he got in because of his ACT (34) but that score was helped by getting extra time in the exam (he is, mildly, on the spectrum and had IEP from 2nd-11th grade). And SAT/ACT score averages are pretty high at RPI despite its high acceptance rate.

I was definitely worried about him because the classes are known to be tough and there is no grade inflation. But he’s doing fine. He decided he did not want any supports, so does not get extra time or any other accommodations, his grades are generally A- to B- range, and he’s become really active in a couple of activities. He’s even in better shape physically. He has known several kids who have dropped out or on academic probation because of their grades.

So honestly he’s fine at his reach. I think he just had to mature a little and apply himself.

Thanks for sharing. This is my DD’s top choice and I have a ton of concerns about the rigor of RPI.

How much do you think it’s him being engaged in the academics vs. maturing? What year is he?

He's a sophomore. I definitely noticed the maturation senior year of HS. He had by far his best year academically and seemed more engaged in his classes. Some of that was because he was able to take more classes he was interested in, since he'd completed his HS requirements and was taking mostly electives.

He's wanted to be an aerospace engineer since middle school and never wavered on that, so I think him being engaged in his coursework also helps. And in college he just kind of developed a routine and stuck with it. Gets up early every weekday. Works out at the gym if he doesn't have an early class. Found good places to study. One benefit of RPI is a lot of the kids are taking the same classes, since the vast majority are STEM majors, so it's easy to find study partners or, if you befriend upperclassmen, people who have taken the class and can share their wisdom. I should mention specifically--he also heard from classmates that a certain required class was A BEAR at RPI, and avoid if at all possible. So he took the class this past summer at our local community college and RPI accepted the transfer credit.

The strange thing is that my current HS senior DC seems to have the exact same trajectory. Slacked off a lot in HS. Unfocused. Executive function difficulties. Then . . . started senior year with his best grades by far . . . knows what he wants to do in college and applied accordingly, but his grades were simply not good enough to apply to some schools that otherwise would have been good fits. Maybe I should have just redshirted all these boys.

Best of luck to your DD!

This is VERY helpful, thank you for the details!