Stats on magnet enrollment by home school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found this info really fascinating. Any thoughts on what it means for the implications for the new regional magnets?

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DJVQ56678E2B/$file/Attachment%20D%20SY2025%20Student%20Enrollment%20Countywide%20Programs%20250724.pdf

It’s interesting that Northwood has the most students leaving for countywide programs (232). I wonder if that’s an increase due to the holding school being incomplete and so far away from the actual school boundary.

Also, as somebody said in another thread, is the end goal to have the same number of kids entering a school for a special program as are leaving the school to attend a different program in another building?

And that won't happen. What they are actually trying to achieve is for students to NOT want to go to other programs and just stay at the home school that offers some program.

There are only two STEM magnets, and Wootton sends a whopping 105 to Blair, but 0 to < 10 to the other STEM magnets.

Some of it is due to proximity, but largely, IMO, it's due to the classes that are offered.

FWIW, my kids didn't/don't go to Blair magnet, but I don't think MCPS will be able to recreate Blair magnet and all of its very advanced course offerings at other schools. I'll say again - finding STEM teachers is difficult, even more so for these very advanced magnet level classes.

The programs will be watered down, and it will be a "magnet" in name only.

Well, your opinion is worthless and useless.
Wootton is not eligible for the other STEM magnet.

Oh, but your opinions are worthy and useful. LOL

True facts are more worthy than opinions based on ignorant misunderstanding.

What true fact did you provide that is worthy of you posting? You provided no true facts, just your opinion about my post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know how they actually select students for these programs? They can't have time to interview them all, can they? Do they use intelligence tests or something like that? At the elementary and middle school levels they mostly use MAP scores which don't really tell you much about intelligence or potential (just what topics kids have been exposed to and retained), but they must have something better for high school, right?

They used to use Cogat instead of MAP, but I think they didn't like that white/Asian students typically did better in Cogat, so they thought if they switched to MAP it would capture more URM kids.

Here's the thing though, MCPS own numbers show that, statistically, white/Asian students do better in MAP, as well.

So, then MCPS tried the "no peer cohort at the home school criteria" admissions for the MS, and provided "enriched" classes at the home school, but that failed, too, because as people have stated, you can't mirror the success of the magnet programs without the same curriculum, trained teachers, and the peer cohort.

So, now they are trying for regional programs at the HS level, but again, that won't work out as well because again, you can't recreate a magnet program across all six regions without the qualified teachers, especially in STEM, and the peer cohort of top students from the county.

Actually it was because of COVID and COGat wasn’t administered, whereas all the students were still taking the MAP.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many kids from Churchill, WJ, and Wootton go to RMIB?

It's not just RMIB, they send a lot to Blair too. Are those 3 bad schools or something?

Those zones have most the tippy top students in the county.

What does "tippy top students" even mean? I can't imagine those schools have that many more gifted kids with high potential than other schools, most of which send less than 10 kids.

I'd believe kids in those areas have higher test scores or other accomplishments based on exposure though, between the elementary and middle schools and the exposure and support from better-off parents But that shouldn't affect admissions that much, should it-- what are the admissions criteria? The magnets are supposed to serve the smartest kids in the county, right? Not just provide extra resources and supports to kids who get ahead because of receiving more resources and support than kids of equal intelligence in poorer areas/families?

If the countywide magnets are actually serving the smartest, most capable kids of all backgrounds countywide, regardless of background, then I support them. But if they're essentially just helping 95th percentile kids from rich areas get more advantages than top 1-2% kids from poor areas because the richer kids score better on exposure-based tests like MAP or the like, then I have a huge problem with that

According to the stats they shared, only 8% of RMIB kids and 12% of Blair SMCS and Poolesville SMCS kids have ever qualified for FARMS (I believe the ever FARMS rate for the county as a whole is 46%), and they have way fewer Black and Hispanic kids than the county as a whole. So I highly doubt these magnet programs are actually using admissions criteria that select the most brilliant kids with the highest potential. Just smart kids that test well probably.

You don’t sound very smart. Low farm and fewer black and Hispanic equal not using admission criteria that select most brilliant kids with highest potential? What kind of logic is that?

What, you think that 80-90% of the smartest kids in the county come from the 1/3 of county kids who are white or Asian? Nope, but I bet 80-90% of kids who test the best do.

More Asians and whites = the system selects for test-takers, not the most brilliant kids with real potential. That logic sounds pretty racist.

You’re forgetting that it’s not just the selection, but the people who apply. The applicant pool skews heavily Asian. Blair magnet is only about 10 percent white, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many kids from Churchill, WJ, and Wootton go to RMIB?

It's not just RMIB, they send a lot to Blair too. Are those 3 bad schools or something?

Those zones have most the tippy top students in the county.

What does "tippy top students" even mean? I can't imagine those schools have that many more gifted kids with high potential than other schools, most of which send less than 10 kids.

I'd believe kids in those areas have higher test scores or other accomplishments based on exposure though, between the elementary and middle schools and the exposure and support from better-off parents But that shouldn't affect admissions that much, should it-- what are the admissions criteria? The magnets are supposed to serve the smartest kids in the county, right? Not just provide extra resources and supports to kids who get ahead because of receiving more resources and support than kids of equal intelligence in poorer areas/families?

If the countywide magnets are actually serving the smartest, most capable kids of all backgrounds countywide, regardless of background, then I support them. But if they're essentially just helping 95th percentile kids from rich areas get more advantages than top 1-2% kids from poor areas because the richer kids score better on exposure-based tests like MAP or the like, then I have a huge problem with that

According to the stats they shared, only 8% of RMIB kids and 12% of Blair SMCS and Poolesville SMCS kids have ever qualified for FARMS (I believe the ever FARMS rate for the county as a whole is 46%), and they have way fewer Black and Hispanic kids than the county as a whole. So I highly doubt these magnet programs are actually using admissions criteria that select the most brilliant kids with the highest potential. Just smart kids that test well probably.

You don’t sound very smart. Low farm and fewer black and Hispanic equal not using admission criteria that select most brilliant kids with highest potential? What kind of logic is that?

What, you think that 80-90% of the smartest kids in the county come from the 1/3 of county kids who are white or Asian? Nope, but I bet 80-90% of kids who test the best do.

More Asians and whites = the system selects for test-takers, not the most brilliant kids with real potential. That logic sounds pretty racist.

Wait, you're saying that you think the magnets do accurately select the very smartest kids in the county, meaning you think that almost all of the smartest kids in the county are white and Asian and the magnets are correct to conclude that there are very few brilliant Black or Hispanic high schoolers in MCPS? And you''re suggesting *I'm* the one who's racist?

I’m just following your logic, but it doesn’t hold up. If you think the magnet programs aren’t selecting the smartest kids, then back it up with actual evidence. Just pointing out that most students are White or Asian doesn’t prove the process is flawed. Blair is a nationally recognized STEM magnet with a long track record of success as it consistently admits top talent who go on to win national and international academic competitions. You’re being racist by focusing on races only.

I'm confused. Unless you believe that some races are more intelligent than others (which I would define as racist), how can you believe that a process that selects Asian and white kids much more often than Black and Hispanic kids is accurately selecting the kids with the greatest innate intelligence and true potential, rather than being skewed by kids' access to resources and exposure to strong education in these areas which then gets displayed in test scores? This is frankly a challenging tendency to overcome in any school selection process.

(I never said that Blair doesn't select many highly gifted kids capable of winning national competitions, and this is not inconsistent with that. The question is whether, besides selecting the truly brilliant white/Asian/richer kids who are not necessarily enough to fill a whole class on their own, the programs also successfully identify and select the brilliant Black and Hispanic kids as well, or whether those kids mostly get beaten out by the "just bright" Asian/white/richer kids instead due to higher test scores or the like. The numbers strongly suggest the latter.)

To be clear, the numbers of Black students in the Blair magnet are likely comparable to white students. Few Latino students though. Many, many (most?) are from immigrant families. I actually can’t think of a single magnet family I know that doesn’t have at least one immigrant parent. Income levels are mixed, though I’d be surprised if FARMS rates were representative of the school as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many kids from Churchill, WJ, and Wootton go to RMIB?

It's not just RMIB, they send a lot to Blair too. Are those 3 bad schools or something?

Those zones have most the tippy top students in the county.

What does "tippy top students" even mean? I can't imagine those schools have that many more gifted kids with high potential than other schools, most of which send less than 10 kids.

I'd believe kids in those areas have higher test scores or other accomplishments based on exposure though, between the elementary and middle schools and the exposure and support from better-off parents But that shouldn't affect admissions that much, should it-- what are the admissions criteria? The magnets are supposed to serve the smartest kids in the county, right? Not just provide extra resources and supports to kids who get ahead because of receiving more resources and support than kids of equal intelligence in poorer areas/families?

If the countywide magnets are actually serving the smartest, most capable kids of all backgrounds countywide, regardless of background, then I support them. But if they're essentially just helping 95th percentile kids from rich areas get more advantages than top 1-2% kids from poor areas because the richer kids score better on exposure-based tests like MAP or the like, then I have a huge problem with that

High intelligence, high performance people tend to cluster together and raise their kids together. People who care about education find each other. The differences are stark.
If a smart kid hasn't learned anything much by 8th grade, that's a tragedy but throwing them into an advanced accelerated program isn't going to help. They need something to help them catch up.

People like to tell themselves that, but I don't buy it. Rich schools don't just so happen to have 5-10 times the number of profoundly gifted kids as poor schools. But they do often have many more kids who are bright and get lots of supports to succeed and access accelerated material and score high on exposure-based tests like MAP.

And no one's saying that smart kids who are behind grade level/"haven't learned anything much" by 8th grade should be admitted into advanced programs. Just that bright rich kids who test better than profoundly gifted, slightly-ahead-of-grade level poor kids shouldn't get all the spots and leave the highly gifted poor kids behind with the justification that the poor kids can just take AP classes and that'll be fine.

So you're going to throw these unsung genius kids, identified by some mysterious process, into the same classes with years worth of additional preparation and demonstrated ability?
because these using? And these geniuses will somehow learn all the material they skipped?

Despite the fact that this was already tried with the TPMS lottery, and was an abject failure?

Seriously? We're not talking about kids who are behind, or even kids who are only 85th-90th percentile kids like the CES and MS lotteries.

I'm just saying, if you're going to take the position "let's turbocharge the education of the top 1% of kids and give everyone else basically nothing (in fact fight the idea of giving more kids something better) and dramatically increase the disparities in education between the top 1% and everyone else" you better be damned sure that you are actually getting the whole top 1%, rather than the top 5% of kids in a few demographically and economically unrepresentative areas beating out kids with much higher intelligence/potential who might score similarly to them on tests but have been fighting an uphill battle to learn for years and took Algebra 1 one year later or something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know how they actually select students for these programs? They can't have time to interview them all, can they? Do they use intelligence tests or something like that? At the elementary and middle school levels they mostly use MAP scores which don't really tell you much about intelligence or potential (just what topics kids have been exposed to and retained), but they must have something better for high school, right?

They used to use Cogat instead of MAP, but I think they didn't like that white/Asian students typically did better in Cogat, so they thought if they switched to MAP it would capture more URM kids.

Here's the thing though, MCPS own numbers show that, statistically, white/Asian students do better in MAP, as well.

So, then MCPS tried the "no peer cohort at the home school criteria" admissions for the MS, and provided "enriched" classes at the home school, but that failed, too, because as people have stated, you can't mirror the success of the magnet programs without the same curriculum, trained teachers, and the peer cohort.

So, now they are trying for regional programs at the HS level, but again, that won't work out as well because again, you can't recreate a magnet program across all six regions without the qualified teachers, especially in STEM, and the peer cohort of top students from the county.

Actually it was because of COVID and COGat wasn’t administered, whereas all the students were still taking the MAP.

covid restrictions have been over for five years, yet they still use MAP and not cogat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know how they actually select students for these programs? They can't have time to interview them all, can they? Do they use intelligence tests or something like that? At the elementary and middle school levels they mostly use MAP scores which don't really tell you much about intelligence or potential (just what topics kids have been exposed to and retained), but they must have something better for high school, right?

They used to use Cogat instead of MAP, but I think they didn't like that white/Asian students typically did better in Cogat, so they thought if they switched to MAP it would capture more URM kids.

Here's the thing though, MCPS own numbers show that, statistically, white/Asian students do better in MAP, as well.

So, then MCPS tried the "no peer cohort at the home school criteria" admissions for the MS, and provided "enriched" classes at the home school, but that failed, too, because as people have stated, you can't mirror the success of the magnet programs without the same curriculum, trained teachers, and the peer cohort.

So, now they are trying for regional programs at the HS level, but again, that won't work out as well because again, you can't recreate a magnet program across all six regions without the qualified teachers, especially in STEM, and the peer cohort of top students from the county.

Another one spewing garbage and misinformation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found this info really fascinating. Any thoughts on what it means for the implications for the new regional magnets?

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DJVQ56678E2B/$file/Attachment%20D%20SY2025%20Student%20Enrollment%20Countywide%20Programs%20250724.pdf

It’s interesting that Northwood has the most students leaving for countywide programs (232). I wonder if that’s an increase due to the holding school being incomplete and so far away from the actual school boundary.

Also, as somebody said in another thread, is the end goal to have the same number of kids entering a school for a special program as are leaving the school to attend a different program in another building?

And that won't happen. What they are actually trying to achieve is for students to NOT want to go to other programs and just stay at the home school that offers some program.

There are only two STEM magnets, and Wootton sends a whopping 105 to Blair, but 0 to < 10 to the other STEM magnets.

Some of it is due to proximity, but largely, IMO, it's due to the classes that are offered.

FWIW, my kids didn't/don't go to Blair magnet, but I don't think MCPS will be able to recreate Blair magnet and all of its very advanced course offerings at other schools. I'll say again - finding STEM teachers is difficult, even more so for these very advanced magnet level classes.

The programs will be watered down, and it will be a "magnet" in name only.

Well, your opinion is worthless and useless.
Wootton is not eligible for the other STEM magnet.

Oh, but your opinions are worthy and useful. LOL

True facts are more worthy than opinions based on ignorant misunderstanding.

What true fact did you provide that is worthy of you posting? You provided no true facts, just your opinion about my post.

The poster provided you with the fact that Wootton is not served by PHS SMCS.
You're truly clueless or an ignorant troll.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found this info really fascinating. Any thoughts on what it means for the implications for the new regional magnets?

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DJVQ56678E2B/$file/Attachment%20D%20SY2025%20Student%20Enrollment%20Countywide%20Programs%20250724.pdf

It’s interesting that Northwood has the most students leaving for countywide programs (232). I wonder if that’s an increase due to the holding school being incomplete and so far away from the actual school boundary.

Also, as somebody said in another thread, is the end goal to have the same number of kids entering a school for a special program as are leaving the school to attend a different program in another building?

And that won't happen. What they are actually trying to achieve is for students to NOT want to go to other programs and just stay at the home school that offers some program.

There are only two STEM magnets, and Wootton sends a whopping 105 to Blair, but 0 to < 10 to the other STEM magnets.

Some of it is due to proximity, but largely, IMO, it's due to the classes that are offered.

FWIW, my kids didn't/don't go to Blair magnet, but I don't think MCPS will be able to recreate Blair magnet and all of its very advanced course offerings at other schools. I'll say again - finding STEM teachers is difficult, even more so for these very advanced magnet level classes.

The programs will be watered down, and it will be a "magnet" in name only.

Well, your opinion is worthless and useless.
Wootton is not eligible for the other STEM magnet.

Oh, but your opinions are worthy and useful. LOL

True facts are more worthy than opinions based on ignorant misunderstanding.

What true fact did you provide that is worthy of you posting? You provided no true facts, just your opinion about my post.

The poster provided you with the fact that Wootton is not served by PHS SMCS.
You're truly clueless or an ignorant troll.
DP

Not served by Wheaton engineering either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know how they actually select students for these programs? They can't have time to interview them all, can they? Do they use intelligence tests or something like that? At the elementary and middle school levels they mostly use MAP scores which don't really tell you much about intelligence or potential (just what topics kids have been exposed to and retained), but they must have something better for high school, right?

They used to use Cogat instead of MAP, but I think they didn't like that white/Asian students typically did better in Cogat, so they thought if they switched to MAP it would capture more URM kids.

Here's the thing though, MCPS own numbers show that, statistically, white/Asian students do better in MAP, as well.

So, then MCPS tried the "no peer cohort at the home school criteria" admissions for the MS, and provided "enriched" classes at the home school, but that failed, too, because as people have stated, you can't mirror the success of the magnet programs without the same curriculum, trained teachers, and the peer cohort.

So, now they are trying for regional programs at the HS level, but again, that won't work out as well because again, you can't recreate a magnet program across all six regions without the qualified teachers, especially in STEM, and the peer cohort of top students from the county.

You could create 100 magnets if you had 100x the number of elite work ethic students. Notice I didn’t say genius because most of them are not, just studious by either natural drive or tiger moms. It’s the distillation of the students from such a large and affluent pool that is MoCo and not the program or teachers. Yes there is better teachers and or opportunities but those kids would go to great colleges even in general pop at Kennedy. There might be 2x the students who will to commit to the rigors &time while being able to keep up to the program but it is unarguably a large drain of resources for just a small fraction of students to live their best life.

The fundamental argument here is let’s lift the top 20% of students higher with a more local and nuanced education instead of empowering the top 1% even higher for similar cost. People need to get out of the DCC mind frame, the magnet gave people something to be proud about while sending their kids to lower tier schools inside the county…. A retort when the W’s thumbed their noses at them. I suspect most of the apprehension to losing the magnets isn’t so much the lost opportunity of an Asian kid who lives in Potomac or Bethesda anyway but the general feeling that the lower tier schools can’t have nice things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But hardly any from Whitman.

I am also wondering if Pyle Middle School does little to prepare and encourage students to apply to magnet programs. Our Pyle counselor did not encourage us to accept the magnet offer.

Whereas one parent wrote that the Rockville middle schools identify kids they think are good candidates and give them help with their essays.

[Anonymous]

Do they make it easier to get in if you're from one of the schools that isn't disproportionately represented? (i.e. not Churchill, WJ, Wooton etc.) It looks kind of bad that so few home areas make up most of the student (recognizing that it's a really far commute from the BCC/Whitman areas that make it less unattractive).