So many engineering students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Liberal arts is in theory a fantastic intellectual foundation for life and a career, but in practice its been wrecked by wokeness. Everyone recognizes this and is staying away.

If we can reform the liberal arts, it will flourish again.

It did not die out due to wokeness. Liberal arts degrees have been declining for many years in part due to the growth in the tech sector, and more students majoring in business.

And why are people so interested in majoring in "business" which typically not a rigorous degree where you learn boring things that were just picked up on the job by intelligent, well-rounded people years ago without the need for any courses? Perhaps its all the stories they hear about people signing for literature courses and having to listen to political drivel rather than actually learn to appreciate literature.

Kids major in business because it's practical and interesting. Also, most don't just "major in business". They choose accounting or finance or entrepreneurship, which is much more rigorous than say "General Business" or "marketing". That's where lots of Premed/Engineering kids head when they switch majors

This. They have the aptitude for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Liberal arts is in theory a fantastic intellectual foundation for life and a career, but in practice its been wrecked by wokeness. Everyone recognizes this and is staying away.

If we can reform the liberal arts, it will flourish again.

It did not die out due to wokeness. Liberal arts degrees have been declining for many years in part due to the growth in the tech sector, and more students majoring in business.

And why are people so interested in majoring in "business" which typically not a rigorous degree where you learn boring things that were just picked up on the job by intelligent, well-rounded people years ago without the need for any courses? Perhaps its all the stories they hear about people signing for literature courses and having to listen to political drivel rather than actually learn to appreciate literature.

People are interested in majoring in business because there's more money to be made as a business major than an English major.

Seriously, it's not that hard to understand.

FWIW, I am not a progressive, and I dislike that my kids had to read so much woke books in school. One year, the book choices were pretty much all about DEI.

Ok, but this was not historically true. Historically, business leaders actually went to elite, northeastern, private liberal arts colleges where they got a well rounded education learning about the intellectual history of Western Civilization. Over time, that got replaced more and more with critical theory to the point where many of these departments were almost entirely dominated by critical theorists and people started mistakenly assuming that critical theory WAS liberal arts, not just one sector of it. And of course what underpins critical theory is character assassination of anyone who pushes back on the theories, many of which are quite stupid. There is a time and place for critical theory but it's about 10x more prominent than it should be in a well rounded liberal arts curriculum. They also just started dumbing down the curriculum generally, which started to kids on the margins from failing out and getting sent to Vietnam, and really picked up steam when the colleges started jacking up tuition and treating the students (or really, their parents) as a revenue source and to be catered to rather than a pupil to be challenged.

Anyways, back in the day these well rounded students THEN went into business (some with MBAs, some without) and just picked up business on the job, which is fine because in most cases it ain't really that hard, esp. for someone that's in the top 1-5% of IQ and work ethic anyways, which is what the leadership was and is. These colleges didn't even HAVE business majors since it wasn't a real subject.

Some of their employees, who wouldn't have been able to complete those liberal arts programs back when they were actually rigorous, went to lower tier schools where they did study "business." Because they wouldn't have been capable of just picking it up on the fly, so they needed the extra training, and because they weren't being trained for leadership anyways, so having a broad education wasn't as important.

Anyways, you can think that system was great or terrible, but anyways it is 95% dead and gone and the critical theorists are the ones standing over the body with the murder weapon, desperately lecturing it about microaggressions as their disciplines fade further into irrelevance.

This analysis was so spot-on and so eloquently written! You must be a Liberal Arts (of old) major.

It's also very old fashioned thinking (back in the day) when people (mostly white men) got liberal arts degrees and then could find a white collar job after graduating because they didn't have to compete with uneducated men, minorities and women.

Times of changed. Supply and demand.

So tedious. "We can't read Milton anymore because [wokeness]." Meanwhile, there's a recent article in the Atlantic about how professors (even at really top schools, like Columbia) increasingly find their students cannot read college level books, have never read a book cover to cover at all, etc.

Btw, chat GPT told me that of the following schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Stanford, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore), only one of them has a business-related undergraduate major (MIT, which makes sense given it was historically more focused on trades). For all the rest, there is no major in any of business, accounting, finance or marketing. The closest approximation is studying economics, math or physics. So what I am saying still holds true at the top end of the pyramid. Interesting these schools are able to place so many into the upper echelons of business anyways and can do this even though white males are only a small fraction of their student body.

[Anonymous]

The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books

https://archive.is/OzvSu#selection-923.0-973.1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Liberal arts is in theory a fantastic intellectual foundation for life and a career, but in practice its been wrecked by wokeness. Everyone recognizes this and is staying away.

If we can reform the liberal arts, it will flourish again.

It did not die out due to wokeness. Liberal arts degrees have been declining for many years in part due to the growth in the tech sector, and more students majoring in business.

And why are people so interested in majoring in "business" which typically not a rigorous degree where you learn boring things that were just picked up on the job by intelligent, well-rounded people years ago without the need for any courses? Perhaps its all the stories they hear about people signing for literature courses and having to listen to political drivel rather than actually learn to appreciate literature.

People study business because that’s where the money is. Duh.

Our culture is deeply anti-intellectual. Our culture worships money above all. Treating Universities as de facto trade schools (STEM! Business!) does not make for a truly educated populace.

You can't eat education. You need money.

People on here complain about how they can't make it on $200K because of student loans. Biden used taxpayer money to wipe out billions in student loans.

My tax dollars had to wipe out your loan because you thought "education is more important than a vocational degree".

Thanks for being a model American ignoramus, PP. You’re making my point beautifully.

I'm a massive liberal and I thought this was SUPER dumb of Biden. What he should have done was paid the monthly loan payments for anyone who was: 1) a public school teacher; 2) in the military; 3) a police officer; 4) a firefighter; 5) working for Americorp, Peace Corp or the National Parks service.

Student loan repayment is neither here nor there when discussing the benefits of a classical liberal education. Neither you nor the (American ignoramus) PP with whom you are agreeing seem capable of following an extremely simple conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:STEM is the new liberal arts. CS and engineering grads working at starbucks! Oh the irony!

Engineering grads are, by and large, not working at Starbucks.

Neither are CS grads.

Adults with very little college education? Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Liberal arts is in theory a fantastic intellectual foundation for life and a career, but in practice its been wrecked by wokeness. Everyone recognizes this and is staying away.

If we can reform the liberal arts, it will flourish again.

It did not die out due to wokeness. Liberal arts degrees have been declining for many years in part due to the growth in the tech sector, and more students majoring in business.

And why are people so interested in majoring in "business" which typically not a rigorous degree where you learn boring things that were just picked up on the job by intelligent, well-rounded people years ago without the need for any courses? Perhaps its all the stories they hear about people signing for literature courses and having to listen to political drivel rather than actually learn to appreciate literature.

People study business because that’s where the money is. Duh.

Our culture is deeply anti-intellectual. Our culture worships money above all. Treating Universities as de facto trade schools (STEM! Business!) does not make for a truly educated populace.

You can't eat education. You need money.

People on here complain about how they can't make it on $200K because of student loans. Biden used taxpayer money to wipe out billions in student loans.

My tax dollars had to wipe out your loan because you thought "education is more important than a vocational degree".

Thanks for being a model American ignoramus, PP. You’re making my point beautifully.

I'm a massive liberal and I thought this was SUPER dumb of Biden. What he should have done was paid the monthly loan payments for anyone who was: 1) a public school teacher; 2) in the military; 3) a police officer; 4) a firefighter; 5) working for Americorp, Peace Corp or the National Parks service.

Totally agree. Also a lifelong Dem who thought the loan forgiveness plan was horrible. Solve the underlying issue, don't just do a one time payoff that includes a lot of people who don't need the help. I agree that it should have been very targeted (if it was even done) and should have been accompanied by other reforms to the student loan process so it would be more sustainable.

Regarding undergrads studying business, I always get a kick out of kids who are going to schools like most of the Ivies that don't have a formal business program then say they are planning to study business. Don't they know that the school they are about to attend doesn't have a business major? One would think that is kind of important. Yes, at most of the schools you can cobble together a curriculum of econ, sociology and other classes that looks a lot like a business major, but it is not business.

As one who works on Wall Street, I still have a soft spot for the really smart, personable liberal arts majors who hasn't spent all three summers of college doing finance internships but rather is eager to learn and down to earth. I also actually like hiring engineers as well, particularly for roles that are more quant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else notice this trend? It seems that almost every student at DC's school is going into engineering

A large percentage of them won’t be able to hack engineering and will drop out of it and pursue an easier major.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Engineering is seen as an prestige/six figure job out of school. But most do not make it, others dol and hate the junior engineering gigs. They are about as souless as any cube job in the end and way more pressure.

The highest paid undergraduate school is the Engineering school at DS’ ivy and many other elites: it is 100k+ average starting for BSE. New phDs make 200k+ as long as not doing a post doc—in other words age 27-28. That is a much faster path to top dollar than medicine because there is no debt and no residency 4-6 yr. PhDs include full funding with living expenses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else notice this trend? It seems that almost every student at DC's school is going into engineering

Don't worry. They won't all make it through. You lose 50% the first year.

Not at top privates. No one fails or gets a D. DS ivy has 99% continuation in engineering year 1 to year 2. Average gpa is 3.4 then goes up to 3.55 by senior. They aim to have every admit continue through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Liberal arts is in theory a fantastic intellectual foundation for life and a career, but in practice its been wrecked by wokeness. Everyone recognizes this and is staying away.

If we can reform the liberal arts, it will flourish again.

It did not die out due to wokeness. Liberal arts degrees have been declining for many years in part due to the growth in the tech sector, and more students majoring in business.

And why are people so interested in majoring in "business" which typically not a rigorous degree where you learn boring things that were just picked up on the job by intelligent, well-rounded people years ago without the need for any courses? Perhaps its all the stories they hear about people signing for literature courses and having to listen to political drivel rather than actually learn to appreciate literature.

People are interested in majoring in business because there's more money to be made as a business major than an English major.

Seriously, it's not that hard to understand.

FWIW, I am not a progressive, and I dislike that my kids had to read so much woke books in school. One year, the book choices were pretty much all about DEI.

Ok, but this was not historically true. Historically, business leaders actually went to elite, northeastern, private liberal arts colleges where they got a well rounded education learning about the intellectual history of Western Civilization. Over time, that got replaced more and more with critical theory to the point where many of these departments were almost entirely dominated by critical theorists and people started mistakenly assuming that critical theory WAS liberal arts, not just one sector of it. And of course what underpins critical theory is character assassination of anyone who pushes back on the theories, many of which are quite stupid. There is a time and place for critical theory but it's about 10x more prominent than it should be in a well rounded liberal arts curriculum. They also just started dumbing down the curriculum generally, which started to kids on the margins from failing out and getting sent to Vietnam, and really picked up steam when the colleges started jacking up tuition and treating the students (or really, their parents) as a revenue source and to be catered to rather than a pupil to be challenged.

Anyways, back in the day these well rounded students THEN went into business (some with MBAs, some without) and just picked up business on the job, which is fine because in most cases it ain't really that hard, esp. for someone that's in the top 1-5% of IQ and work ethic anyways, which is what the leadership was and is. These colleges didn't even HAVE business majors since it wasn't a real subject.

Some of their employees, who wouldn't have been able to complete those liberal arts programs back when they were actually rigorous, went to lower tier schools where they did study "business." Because they wouldn't have been capable of just picking it up on the fly, so they needed the extra training, and because they weren't being trained for leadership anyways, so having a broad education wasn't as important.

Anyways, you can think that system was great or terrible, but anyways it is 95% dead and gone and the critical theorists are the ones standing over the body with the murder weapon, desperately lecturing it about microaggressions as their disciplines fade further into irrelevance.

This analysis was so spot-on and so eloquently written! You must be a Liberal Arts (of old) major.

It's also very old fashioned thinking (back in the day) when people (mostly white men) got liberal arts degrees and then could find a white collar job after graduating because they didn't have to compete with uneducated men, minorities and women.

Times of changed. Supply and demand.

Liberal arts degrees from elite universities and top3 LACs still get top jobs yes even if the subject is history or English or latin. And if the liberal arts degree is math or physics the options are even better. Top schools have unparalleled career stats from all majors. Top consulting and other top companies hire from all majors at these schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering is seen as an prestige/six figure job out of school. But most do not make it, others dol and hate the junior engineering gigs. They are about as souless as any cube job in the end and way more pressure.

The highest paid undergraduate school is the Engineering school at DS’ ivy and many other elites: it is 100k+ average starting for BSE. New phDs make 200k+ as long as not doing a post doc—in other words age 27-28. That is a much faster path to top dollar than medicine because there is no debt and no residency 4-6 yr. PhDs include full funding with living expenses

Yep

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books

https://archive.is/OzvSu#selection-923.0-973.1

The article states that most college students cite the Percy Jackson series as their favorite books— so obviously they are reading books??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else notice this trend? It seems that almost every student at DC's school is going into engineering

Them trains gotta be driven by someone.

[Anonymous]

Kids who drop out will become business majors. Not many will make thru engg school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else notice this trend? It seems that almost every student at DC's school is going into engineering

Don't worry. They won't all make it through. You lose 50% the first year.

Not at top privates. No one fails or gets a D. DS ivy has 99% continuation in engineering year 1 to year 2. Average gpa is 3.4 then goes up to 3.55 by senior. They aim to have every admit continue through.

Exceptions don't make the rule. I am aware that no one gets less than a C at Harvard.