Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

How is it equitable some kids only have the opportunity to take H algebra or H geometry online? Obviously a kid who is able to be in a classroom with a teacher and motivated peers is going to do better than someone trying to take an online class. I don't understand this argument.

The majority of 8th graders taking Honors Algebra II have taken Honors Geometry over the summer between 7th and 8th grade online.

Having known a lot of these kids. I'm not sure the extra year of elective math in high school is worth it.
I guess I just don't see the benefit of taking calculus as a sophomore.
If you take linear algebra and multivariable calculus in high school that's is really more than enough math.
You don't really want to take concrete math or number theory high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

How is it equitable some kids only have the opportunity to take H algebra or H geometry online? Obviously a kid who is able to be in a classroom with a teacher and motivated peers is going to do better than someone trying to take an online class. I don't understand this argument.

The majority of 8th graders taking Honors Algebra II have taken Honors Geometry over the summer between 7th and 8th grade online.

That is insane. Truly the race to nowhere for these kids.

For some kids, yes.
For some kids, no.

Pushing your kids to take calculus as a sophomore seems silly to me but I might push for calculus as a junior and definitely push for calculus as a senior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

Pushing your kids to take outside enrichment classes and activities beyond their interest level is gaming the system. When enough parents started doing it, FCPS had to change the process to keep the admissions process fair to all kids.

FCPS wanted kids who were sincerely interested in STEM, not kids who were forced on that path by their parents.

So, yes, those pushy parents ruined it for everyone.

How is the process unfair?
Pushing your kids to study is a normal part of parenting.
If you wish to shield your child from academic competition, you are going to be disappointed.
Not every kid can achieve high levels of academic achievement but if you can turn your C- student into a B+ student, their lives will be much better.
They will have more confidence. They will achieve more success. They will not move back into your basement and drive ubereats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

If affluence determined test scores then we wouldn't see charts like this:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf
In fairfax, whites have higher incomes and wealth than asians and yet asian kids outperform their white peers.

Contrary to popular belief asians do not make more than whites.
Asians make more per household than whites and are more likely to have multiple income households.
Asians also tend to live in higher cost-of-living areas.
But in any given area, whites still make more than asians.

The fact of the matter is that kids from some cultures study more than kids from other cultures.
A kid that studies more has a significant advantage over kids that study less when it comes to anything academic.

Studies from California show that asian and black students that spend similar time studying achieve similar math scores.
Same with asian students compared to white students.
Studying is more encouraged and supported in asian communities than in other communities so maybe you can say that being asian provides a cultural advantage but as long as asian kids study harder (regardless of the reason for their studying), they will continue to be higher achieving academically and dissuading studying is counterproductive to civilization.

Asians should think hard before they tell themselves they are "winning" at anything
Their kids are working more and getting less recognition for their efforts.
They are getting paid less for the same jobs in the same locale.
They aren't better than anyone else, they are just working harder and that work takes a toll.

Do you have any evidence for this? At my office most of the high paying jobs are held by Asians, despite being a minority.

PP
Here is a fairfax county report.
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/neighborhood-community-services/sites/neighborhood-community-services/files/Assets/documents/Prevention/Reports/equitable_growth_profile_highlights.pdf

Asians do about as well as other groups with the same credentials except for whites. White people do noticably better given the same credentials.
Hispanics seem to do noticably worse given the same credentials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

If affluence determined test scores then we wouldn't see charts like this:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf
In fairfax, whites have higher incomes and wealth than asians and yet asian kids outperform their white peers.

Contrary to popular belief asians do not make more than whites.
Asians make more per household than whites and are more likely to have multiple income households.
Asians also tend to live in higher cost-of-living areas.
But in any given area, whites still make more than asians.

The fact of the matter is that kids from some cultures study more than kids from other cultures.
A kid that studies more has a significant advantage over kids that study less when it comes to anything academic.

Studies from California show that asian and black students that spend similar time studying achieve similar math scores.
Same with asian students compared to white students.
Studying is more encouraged and supported in asian communities than in other communities so maybe you can say that being asian provides a cultural advantage but as long as asian kids study harder (regardless of the reason for their studying), they will continue to be higher achieving academically and dissuading studying is counterproductive to civilization.

Asians should think hard before they tell themselves they are "winning" at anything
Their kids are working more and getting less recognition for their efforts.
They are getting paid less for the same jobs in the same locale.
They aren't better than anyone else, they are just working harder and that work takes a toll.

Do you have any evidence for this? At my office most of the high paying jobs are held by Asians, despite being a minority.

PP
Here is a fairfax county report.
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/neighborhood-community-services/sites/neighborhood-community-services/files/Assets/documents/Prevention/Reports/equitable_growth_profile_highlights.pdf

Asians do about as well as other groups with the same credentials except for whites. White people do noticably better given the same credentials.
Hispanics seem to do noticably worse given the same credentials.

And additional cite for absolute income

https://www.neilsberg.com/research/datasets/35aa7ad5-8904-11ee-9302-3860777c1fe6/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

Having a pay-to-play admissions process greatly exacerbated the issue. The school board changed the admissions process multiple times over the years in an effort to increase representation from underrepresented groups **and** to make it more difficult for test prep companies to “crack the test”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

Having a pay-to-play admissions process greatly exacerbated the issue. The school board changed the admissions process multiple times over the years in an effort to increase representation from underrepresented groups **and** to make it more difficult for test prep companies to “crack the test”.

But the reason for the change was race.
Nobody thinks studying is cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

Having a pay-to-play admissions process greatly exacerbated the issue. The school board changed the admissions process multiple times over the years in an effort to increase representation from underrepresented groups **and** to make it more difficult for test prep companies to “crack the test”.

But the reason for the change was race.
Nobody thinks studying is cheating.

As you are well aware, we aren’t talking about “studying”.

The school board was also concerned about the TJ test prep industry “cracking the test”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

Pushing your kids to take outside enrichment classes and activities beyond their interest level is gaming the system. When enough parents started doing it, FCPS had to change the process to keep the admissions process fair to all kids.

FCPS wanted kids who were sincerely interested in STEM, not kids who were forced on that path by their parents.

So, yes, those pushy parents ruined it for everyone.

How is the process unfair?
Pushing your kids to study is a normal part of parenting.
If you wish to shield your child from academic competition, you are going to be disappointed.
Not every kid can achieve high levels of academic achievement but if you can turn your C- student into a B+ student, their lives will be much better.
They will have more confidence. They will achieve more success. They will not move back into your basement and drive ubereats.

Irrelevant. We aren’t discussing C- students or kids with a sincere interest in STEM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

How is it equitable some kids only have the opportunity to take H algebra or H geometry online? Obviously a kid who is able to be in a classroom with a teacher and motivated peers is going to do better than someone trying to take an online class. I don't understand this argument.

The majority of 8th graders taking Honors Algebra II have taken Honors Geometry over the summer between 7th and 8th grade online.

That is insane. Truly the race to nowhere for these kids.

For some kids, yes.
For some kids, no.

Pushing your kids to take calculus as a sophomore seems silly to me but I might push for calculus as a junior and definitely push for calculus as a senior.

Kids can easily take calculus in HS without taking an extra summer math class in middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

If affluence determined test scores then we wouldn't see charts like this:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf
In fairfax, whites have higher incomes and wealth than asians and yet asian kids outperform their white peers.

Contrary to popular belief asians do not make more than whites.
Asians make more per household than whites and are more likely to have multiple income households.
Asians also tend to live in higher cost-of-living areas.
But in any given area, whites still make more than asians.

The fact of the matter is that kids from some cultures study more than kids from other cultures.
A kid that studies more has a significant advantage over kids that study less when it comes to anything academic.

Studies from California show that asian and black students that spend similar time studying achieve similar math scores.
Same with asian students compared to white students.
Studying is more encouraged and supported in asian communities than in other communities so maybe you can say that being asian provides a cultural advantage but as long as asian kids study harder (regardless of the reason for their studying), they will continue to be higher achieving academically and dissuading studying is counterproductive to civilization.

Asians should think hard before they tell themselves they are "winning" at anything
Their kids are working more and getting less recognition for their efforts.
They are getting paid less for the same jobs in the same locale.
They aren't better than anyone else, they are just working harder and that work takes a toll.

Since we are discussing family income, household income is the relevant metric.

Asian families are, on average, more affluent than other groups so it’s not surprising that they can afford expensive test prep programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

If affluence determined test scores then we wouldn't see charts like this:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf
In fairfax, whites have higher incomes and wealth than asians and yet asian kids outperform their white peers.

Contrary to popular belief asians do not make more than whites.
Asians make more per household than whites and are more likely to have multiple income households.
Asians also tend to live in higher cost-of-living areas.
But in any given area, whites still make more than asians.

The fact of the matter is that kids from some cultures study more than kids from other cultures.
A kid that studies more has a significant advantage over kids that study less when it comes to anything academic.

Studies from California show that asian and black students that spend similar time studying achieve similar math scores.
Same with asian students compared to white students.
Studying is more encouraged and supported in asian communities than in other communities so maybe you can say that being asian provides a cultural advantage but as long as asian kids study harder (regardless of the reason for their studying), they will continue to be higher achieving academically and dissuading studying is counterproductive to civilization.

Asians should think hard before they tell themselves they are "winning" at anything
Their kids are working more and getting less recognition for their efforts.
They are getting paid less for the same jobs in the same locale.
They aren't better than anyone else, they are just working harder and that work takes a toll.

There are a couple of things that are problematic about the above assertions.

1) I don't think there is anyone reasonable who is arguing that "studying" in a vacuum is a bad thing. What becomes problematic is when a system exists that incentivizes a volume of studying at such a young age that creates an imbalance in the student's life experience. It goes without saying that parents should be allowed to raise their children however they want, but we shouldn't be punishing students who, for whatever reason, don't decide to dedicate their entire lives to the TJ admissions process at the age of 10. Studying is good, but more studying is definitely not always better - my years of experience with TJ kids has made that abundantly clear.

2) We have to be careful not to conflate "studying" with "doing a 16-month program that costs $5,000 that is narrowly tailored to get you into TJ". Those two things are NOT the same thing. The latter includes some generally valuable studying, to be sure, but designing an admissions process that accidentally provides an obvious and clear-cut advantage to families who know of and can afford such a program is objectively bad.

3) Never forget that the single demographic subgroup that benefited the most from the changes to the admissions process was low-income Asian students, who presumably have just as much of a cultural predilection for studying as their wealthier counterparts but were previously essentially eliminated from the TJ admissions process. Never, ever forget that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

If affluence determined test scores then we wouldn't see charts like this:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf
In fairfax, whites have higher incomes and wealth than asians and yet asian kids outperform their white peers.

Contrary to popular belief asians do not make more than whites.
Asians make more per household than whites and are more likely to have multiple income households.
Asians also tend to live in higher cost-of-living areas.
But in any given area, whites still make more than asians.

The fact of the matter is that kids from some cultures study more than kids from other cultures.
A kid that studies more has a significant advantage over kids that study less when it comes to anything academic.

Studies from California show that asian and black students that spend similar time studying achieve similar math scores.
Same with asian students compared to white students.
Studying is more encouraged and supported in asian communities than in other communities so maybe you can say that being asian provides a cultural advantage but as long as asian kids study harder (regardless of the reason for their studying), they will continue to be higher achieving academically and dissuading studying is counterproductive to civilization.

Asians should think hard before they tell themselves they are "winning" at anything
Their kids are working more and getting less recognition for their efforts.
They are getting paid less for the same jobs in the same locale.
They aren't better than anyone else, they are just working harder and that work takes a toll.

Since we are discussing family income, household income is the relevant metric.

Asian families are, on average, more affluent than other groups so it’s not surprising that they can afford expensive test prep programs.

I don’t care about the test. My kid doesn’t want to go to TJ. Let’s call a spade a spade though. The goal was to get more URMs at TJ and less Asian kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

If affluence determined test scores then we wouldn't see charts like this:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf
In fairfax, whites have higher incomes and wealth than asians and yet asian kids outperform their white peers.

Contrary to popular belief asians do not make more than whites.
Asians make more per household than whites and are more likely to have multiple income households.
Asians also tend to live in higher cost-of-living areas.
But in any given area, whites still make more than asians.

The fact of the matter is that kids from some cultures study more than kids from other cultures.
A kid that studies more has a significant advantage over kids that study less when it comes to anything academic.

Studies from California show that asian and black students that spend similar time studying achieve similar math scores.
Same with asian students compared to white students.
Studying is more encouraged and supported in asian communities than in other communities so maybe you can say that being asian provides a cultural advantage but as long as asian kids study harder (regardless of the reason for their studying), they will continue to be higher achieving academically and dissuading studying is counterproductive to civilization.

Asians should think hard before they tell themselves they are "winning" at anything
Their kids are working more and getting less recognition for their efforts.
They are getting paid less for the same jobs in the same locale.
They aren't better than anyone else, they are just working harder and that work takes a toll.

Since we are discussing family income, household income is the relevant metric.

Asian families are, on average, more affluent than other groups so it’s not surprising that they can afford expensive test prep programs.

I don’t care about the test. My kid doesn’t want to go to TJ. Let’s call a spade a spade though. The goal was to get more URMs at TJ and less Asian kids.

The goal was to get more URMs at TJ without getting less Asian kids - that's why they targeted URMs with the demographic quotas and expanded the class size to keep the number of Asian kids the same. And they succeeded at both.