Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

The course title isn't advancement. There's was more depth in algebra 1 when it was a HS class. There was more depth in calc when it was primarily a college course. The race for acceleration is a feedback loop that dumbs things down.

I don't really see how. Community College professors have no incentive to dumb down Vector Calculus, and they are dedicated teaching faculty which makes them great fits to teach these advanced students.

Professors have no say, the colleges buy a canned curriculum and hire them to process the scores and answer questions. You end up with a vector calc class where every answer is numeric. It's much cheaper for the schools.

I didn't grow up in DC, does Dual credit mean something different here? In my home district, you just take the class at the Community college, no changing curriculums. If the class was illegitimate, then that'd be an illegitimate course for their normal students which will hurt them when they transfer...

Same concept, but online is here to stay. My DC is a math major, his department head said they don’t trust the content knowledge of incoming students (although forced to accept the credits). Specifically mentioned a Bay Area CC.

It can be a real PITA if the curriculum is very specific to the institution, because those kids will miss key content. For example, at my college, the vector calc class had multiple units on differential forms and you just don’t learn that in 99% of vector calc classes, so the students who missed were bleeding out in subsequent classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

Bullcrap. Taking 1 year of calculus in HS is more than enough.

-Actual STEM person

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

Bullcrap. Taking 1 year of calculus in HS is more than enough.

-Actual STEM person

I work in STEM too. It's not that you are incapable of completing a STEM major if you have only Calc AB, but it would be helpful if we gave kids more rigorous content, so they aren't getting steamrolled when they enter freshman year linear for engineering or physics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

You don't need to take any calculus before linear algebra or real analysis if you are so inclined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

I don't think you know how bloated schools are with math majors now. This is no longer a devoted, self-selected group. Was talking with a professor at one of the top producers of math degrees (~300/yr) who said the top five students are as good as anyone in the country, but most students are very needy. They email to explain how long they've worked on a problem, as if that's useful information, or something to be addressed. It's not lack of intelligence or prerequisites, just drive--students who think math is khan academy problem sets and pats on the head. Knowing the MV/LA curriculums that CC are using, this is not surprising.

For those of you bashing CC, it's not like the school curriculums available are that deep either. Most people taking AP BC might benefit from repeating it if they get into a selective math program. I'm not sure what the alternative is for the advanced kids. My kid has maxed out the offerings easily and wants to do more math. I think they should advance as they like if they find it easy, and then retake in college (assuming the math program is harder, which is not the case at all colleges).

[Anonymous]

alternative is to do difficult math problems, like you find on some math contests and not speed through curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

I don't think you know how bloated schools are with math majors now. This is no longer a devoted, self-selected group. Was talking with a professor at one of the top producers of math degrees (~300/yr) who said the top five students are as good as anyone in the country, but most students are very needy. They email to explain how long they've worked on a problem, as if that's useful information, or something to be addressed. It's not lack of intelligence or prerequisites, just drive--students who think math is khan academy problem sets and pats on the head. Knowing the MV/LA curriculums that CC are using, this is not surprising.

For those of you bashing CC, it's not like the school curriculums available are that deep either. Most people taking AP BC might benefit from repeating it if they get into a selective math program. I'm not sure what the alternative is for the advanced kids. My kid has maxed out the offerings easily and wants to do more math. I think they should advance as they like if they find it easy, and then retake in college (assuming the math program is harder, which is not the case at all colleges).

This. Our kid will go well beyond calc in HS via Dual Enrollment and wants to be a math major but has a working assumption she may retake some classes at her four year college. That will further strengthen her base of knowledge and give her a bit of time to review while getting acclimated to college life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wasn’t even good at math but my first year of college included MV Calc, Linear Alg, and Diff Eqs.

This thread should surprise nobody.

How long ago was this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wasn’t even good at math but my first year of college included MV Calc, Linear Alg, and Diff Eqs.

This thread should surprise nobody.

How long ago was this?

About 20 years ago

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Anyone else remember the thread where someone asked about math courses to prep for MIT, and a poster took the OP to task for assuming anything beyond Calculus was required. OK, maybe not required per se, but these results show who’s being accepted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Anyone else remember the thread where someone asked about math courses to prep for MIT, and a poster took the OP to task for assuming anything beyond Calculus was required. OK, maybe not required per se, but these results show who’s being accepted.

yes indeed. Just having one at an ivy in a stem field and seeing the very large percent of students who have 1-2 years past Calc BC in high school has been quite eye opening. The vast variance in the quality of the AP and the post-AP math has most ivies running placement testing to get the students starting at the level for which they are ready, which for most ends up being repeat MVC or LA but the vast majority (at ivies anyway) who ended with BC or higher in high school do not repeat BC. The MV and LA syllabi at these top colleges incorporates so much more than even a phD-taught top high school /top DE version can cover.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Anyone else remember the thread where someone asked about math courses to prep for MIT, and a poster took the OP to task for assuming anything beyond Calculus was required. OK, maybe not required per se, but these results show who’s being accepted.

yes indeed. Just having one at an ivy in a stem field and seeing the very large percent of students who have 1-2 years past Calc BC in high school has been quite eye opening. The vast variance in the quality of the AP and the post-AP math has most ivies running placement testing to get the students starting at the level for which they are ready, which for most ends up being repeat MVC or LA but the vast majority (at ivies anyway) who ended with BC or higher in high school do not repeat BC. The MV and LA syllabi at these top colleges incorporates so much more than even a phD-taught top high school /top DE version can cover.

Linear Algebra is fundamental to Physics, Computer Science, and Mathematics. All students should be required to take it no matter previous experience, because it is so essential and the type of Linear Algebra you do in High school is typically very inadequate. Advanced content sometimes creeps into these courses too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

Agree, DC's 2024 grad friend at a non-ivy T10 went to a top prep school in MA and had to take MV and LA because that is where they tracked along with 1/3 of the school .The school has highly successful matriculation to T10 but if you are not in that top group you cannot get in without being a fac brat or recruited athlete. The kid was an English major at said T10 and is starting at Harvard Law next fall, was sick of math by the end of high school and focused on calc-based stats and higher-level econ for quantitative-distribution classes in college, which they aced but did not enjoy per se.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Anyone else remember the thread where someone asked about math courses to prep for MIT, and a poster took the OP to task for assuming anything beyond Calculus was required. OK, maybe not required per se, but these results show who’s being accepted.

These results do not show "who's being accepted." They show the math preparation of math majors at MIT (etc), which is a subset of the total student body and a subset that skews towards more math courses before entry than some other majors.

Signed,
Parent of MIT student who was admitted with BC Calc only