Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

This is a huge change, and yet 50% of *math* majors at the top school have not done it. This really just speaks to the ubiquity of CC classes, especially online. Of those many are just a canned curriculum from Pearson et al, with keyed assignments and exams. When someone managed to do this a generation ago, either via self-study, or mentorship of a local university professor, it was a significant accomplishment. That this acceleration is now commonplace is not surprising, but that doesn't imply it is necessary or even beneficial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a math major at Harvard who only took Calc AB which is the highest math offered at her high school.

Applied Math? Or Math? Either way, she would be very unusual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean...makes sense. DC's friends have somehow taken Real Analysis, Topology, Linear, Complex Analysis, etc. before getting to Harvard. A lot of those top math students go to math summer camp and study for Olympiads, so they go beyond Calc AB and BC.

My DD's online school had at least 3 sections of Real and Complex Analysis. Some attended the school for a single class.

Stanford OHS?

Yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah my kid just finished BC in 10th…will take LA, DE, MV before he graduates.

Intended major….

Art History

That is how a lot of northeast high schools are, almost half the class takes BC in 11th or earlier even though many of them are not STEM. Its based on middle school tracking

I think taking BC in 11th is pretty much the norm at every good public high school in the Northeast and California regardless of their intended majors. At least among the students aiming for the UCs and T50 schools.

My kid took BC senior year and got into a top 10 school with no declared major. Probably won’t do math but might do a quantitative field. She could have done BC her junior year but after a shaky math class in the pandemic wanted to slow it down so took AB her junior year and then BC her senior year. I think that was the right call. My nephew is doing engineering at an Ivy and I think he also did BC his senior year. I don’t think his school even offers MV or Linear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

Sounds like it’s time to begin tracking even more for high school math. Have one track for the kids doing calculations crunching (Calc Ab and Bc, basically engineers) and another for theoretical calculus (for the Physics/Math students). I know a few kids who did these advanced math classes but only got the calculation crunch and none of the theory- which is what many math classes are like in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

This is a huge change, and yet 50% of *math* majors at the top school have not done it. This really just speaks to the ubiquity of CC classes, especially online. Of those many are just a canned curriculum from Pearson et al, with keyed assignments and exams. When someone managed to do this a generation ago, either via self-study, or mentorship of a local university professor, it was a significant accomplishment. That this acceleration is now commonplace is not surprising, but that doesn't imply it is necessary or even beneficial.

+1000

I know several kids who did it all - MV, linear, etc and still did not get into their top choice schools (even if straight As and 1500+ SATs). When I see their resume, it actually reads as if they were just trying to cram in the highest level courses. Unless you kid is a math genius (which is a very very small percentage), there's no reason to go beyond what their school offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

I was a math major, and the highest class I took was calc AB. I don't get the arms race over math these days. I know there are students who just are so good at math and they really need that acceleration (my brother is one of those), but I don't think that's anywhere near as common as this board would have us believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

DP, but I’m not sure MVC would’ve helped DC, a math major at a top school. Math switches up completely when you get to college and looking at the local community college class, he would’ve just been crunching numbers while barely having a good hold of what Stokes theorem is really doing. We’d benefit from slowing down the math curriculum and teaching better theory

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

Sounds like it’s time to begin tracking even more for high school math. Have one track for the kids doing calculations crunching (Calc Ab and Bc, basically engineers) and another for theoretical calculus (for the Physics/Math students). I know a few kids who did these advanced math classes but only got the calculation crunch and none of the theory- which is what many math classes are like in college.

There's not enough of the really advanced kids to have a track for them, but I think they generally take care of themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.