Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

DP, but I’m not sure MVC would’ve helped DC, a math major at a top school. Math switches up completely when you get to college and looking at the local community college class, he would’ve just been crunching numbers while barely having a good hold of what Stokes theorem is really doing. We’d benefit from slowing down the math curriculum and teaching better theory

I agree. And so do many of my friends who were pushed to excel in math- they were on this track 20+ years ago learning MV/LA in someone's garage. None of us push our kids to accelerate in math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

DP, but I’m not sure MVC would’ve helped DC, a math major at a top school. Math switches up completely when you get to college and looking at the local community college class, he would’ve just been crunching numbers while barely having a good hold of what Stokes theorem is really doing. We’d benefit from slowing down the math curriculum and teaching better theory

I agree. And so do many of my friends who were pushed to excel in math- they were on this track 20+ years ago learning MV/LA in someone's garage. None of us push our kids to accelerate in math.

I'd like to agree with the two of you about slowing down and teaching theory, but in the reality of our school system, do you really think 99% of kids could handle a deeply theoretical approach to math? I have seen the chaos of parents screaming about how common core doesn't make any sense, and so I doubt it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

DP, but I’m not sure MVC would’ve helped DC, a math major at a top school. Math switches up completely when you get to college and looking at the local community college class, he would’ve just been crunching numbers while barely having a good hold of what Stokes theorem is really doing. We’d benefit from slowing down the math curriculum and teaching better theory

I agree. And so do many of my friends who were pushed to excel in math- they were on this track 20+ years ago learning MV/LA in someone's garage. None of us push our kids to accelerate in math.

I'd like to agree with the two of you about slowing down and teaching theory, but in the reality of our school system, do you really think 99% of kids could handle a deeply theoretical approach to math? I have seen the chaos of parents screaming about how common core doesn't make any sense, and so I doubt it.

A deeply theoretical approach appropriate for high schoolers would be great. I floundered greatly in college multivariable calc even with a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam. So did many of my peers. More theory in high school would've helped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

Sounds like it’s time to begin tracking even more for high school math. Have one track for the kids doing calculations crunching (Calc Ab and Bc, basically engineers) and another for theoretical calculus (for the Physics/Math students). I know a few kids who did these advanced math classes but only got the calculation crunch and none of the theory- which is what many math classes are like in college.

There's not enough of the really advanced kids to have a track for them, but I think they generally take care of themselves.

At these magnets and privates there definitely is. Also students like doing the hardest thing, so it would fill more as students get the choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

I don't think you know how bloated schools are with math majors now. This is no longer a devoted, self-selected group. Was talking with a professor at one of the top producers of math degrees (~300/yr) who said the top five students are as good as anyone in the country, but most students are very needy. They email to explain how long they've worked on a problem, as if that's useful information, or something to be addressed. It's not lack of intelligence or prerequisites, just drive--students who think math is khan academy problem sets and pats on the head. Knowing the MV/LA curriculums that CC are using, this is not surprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

I don't think you know how bloated schools are with math majors now. This is no longer a devoted, self-selected group. Was talking with a professor at one of the top producers of math degrees (~300/yr) who said the top five students are as good as anyone in the country, but most students are very needy. They email to explain how long they've worked on a problem, as if that's useful information, or something to be addressed. It's not lack of intelligence or prerequisites, just drive--students who think math is khan academy problem sets and pats on the head. Knowing the MV/LA curriculums that CC are using, this is not surprising.

Exactly. Math has become the backup CS major/practical Liberal arts major. one of the top major at almost every liberal arts college is math. Kinda hard for it to not be this way when all we tell kids is STEM STEM STEM!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

The course title isn't advancement. There's was more depth in algebra 1 when it was a HS class. There was more depth in calc when it was primarily a college course. The race for acceleration is a feedback loop that dumbs things down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

The course title isn't advancement. There's was more depth in algebra 1 when it was a HS class. There was more depth in calc when it was primarily a college course. The race for acceleration is a feedback loop that dumbs things down.

I don't really see how. Community College professors have no incentive to dumb down Vector Calculus, and they are dedicated teaching faculty which makes them great fits to teach these advanced students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

I don't think you know how bloated schools are with math majors now. This is no longer a devoted, self-selected group. Was talking with a professor at one of the top producers of math degrees (~300/yr) who said the top five students are as good as anyone in the country, but most students are very needy. They email to explain how long they've worked on a problem, as if that's useful information, or something to be addressed. It's not lack of intelligence or prerequisites, just drive--students who think math is khan academy problem sets and pats on the head. Knowing the MV/LA curriculums that CC are using, this is not surprising.

Exactly. Math has become the backup CS major/practical Liberal arts major. one of the top major at almost every liberal arts college is math. Kinda hard for it to not be this way when all we tell kids is STEM STEM STEM!

Math is popular at small schools, but it works well in seminar settings, and some of the LAC professors are really happy. The people I hear who are upset with the current batch of students are at the big schools. To be clear it's not that the students are flunking out. They do their time, get the degree, they're just joyless to be around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. My DH went has two engineering degrees from a top STEM university. He went to TJ for high school and the highest math he took there was calculus BC. His parents didn't want him accelerated and it wasn't the norm back then (late 90s). He didn't even know anyone who prepped for TJ admission or did summer courses. I don't see how this produces better outcomes in the long run (meaning over the course of one's career). The people in the top management jobs in tech in middle age are usually the ones who have strong social skills in addition to good tech skills. Kids need to develop those and spending nights, weekends, and summer doing a ton of math is not the way to do it.

Your husband was an engineering major not a math major and there is a difference. Telling some math kids not to go beyond what classes are available is like telling a future English lit major not to read too many novels.

Not really a great analogy. Notably, we don’t see kids accelerating 3-4 grade levels ahead in ELA.

I suspect most of the people here do not have kids who are into math enough to major in it. I don’t know if you all saw the thread about how impractical a pure math major is vs applied math or cs or engineering. It’s not the best major if you are thinking about ROI.

All the kids I know who naturally love math that much are so ready for higher level math that it would be insane to hold them back. The adult I know who majored in math at MIT was finished with calculus before high school and then took cc classes after that because he wanted to, not because he was pushed. The two kids I currently know who may one day want to major in math self-studied calculus while sitting in algebra II class in middle school because that’s the highest math the school will allow, but they already knew the material and were bored. I am not even talking about kids who are aiming for Ivy League. State schools have such kids. I’ll bet if you looked at state school math majors you would also find many who were advanced. I’m not saying you have to be advanced early to cut it as a math major, but math is one of those areas where high natural ability often emerges early. This is very unlike high ability in literary analysis or writing, which often takes time to mature.

I don't think you know how bloated schools are with math majors now. This is no longer a devoted, self-selected group. Was talking with a professor at one of the top producers of math degrees (~300/yr) who said the top five students are as good as anyone in the country, but most students are very needy. They email to explain how long they've worked on a problem, as if that's useful information, or something to be addressed. It's not lack of intelligence or prerequisites, just drive--students who think math is khan academy problem sets and pats on the head. Knowing the MV/LA curriculums that CC are using, this is not surprising.

Exactly. Math has become the backup CS major/practical Liberal arts major. one of the top major at almost every liberal arts college is math. Kinda hard for it to not be this way when all we tell kids is STEM STEM STEM!

Math is popular at small schools, but it works well in seminar settings, and some of the LAC professors are really happy. The people I hear who are upset with the current batch of students are at the big schools. To be clear it's not that the students are flunking out. They do their time, get the degree, they're just joyless to be around.

Math is already hard. Getting grilled and being forced to really stay disciplined in a seminar of like 8 students makes it even more difficult. I can see why these LACs produce very good liberal arts grads. I did a math degree but outside of my tests, no one really could measure if I knew anything at all (and a fair share of those tests had online communities with solutions).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

The course title isn't advancement. There's was more depth in algebra 1 when it was a HS class. There was more depth in calc when it was primarily a college course. The race for acceleration is a feedback loop that dumbs things down.

I don't really see how. Community College professors have no incentive to dumb down Vector Calculus, and they are dedicated teaching faculty which makes them great fits to teach these advanced students.

Professors have no say, the colleges buy a canned curriculum and hire them to process the scores and answer questions. You end up with a vector calc class where every answer is numeric. It's much cheaper for the schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

The course title isn't advancement. There's was more depth in algebra 1 when it was a HS class. There was more depth in calc when it was primarily a college course. The race for acceleration is a feedback loop that dumbs things down.

I don't really see how. Community College professors have no incentive to dumb down Vector Calculus, and they are dedicated teaching faculty which makes them great fits to teach these advanced students.

Professors have no say, the colleges buy a canned curriculum and hire them to process the scores and answer questions. You end up with a vector calc class where every answer is numeric. It's much cheaper for the schools.

I didn't grow up in DC, does Dual credit mean something different here? In my home district, you just take the class at the Community college, no changing curriculums. If the class was illegitimate, then that'd be an illegitimate course for their normal students which will hurt them when they transfer...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Half of Ivy League math majors took MV Calc and Linear Algebra in high school.

This usually means AP Calculus BC in sophomore year, but sometimes means junior year.

https://math.mit.edu/wim/2019/03/10/national-mathematics-survey/

This is a huge difference from just 20 years ago.

Most people won't go to Ivies or major in mathematics so we are talking about roughly 1350 students each year, probably 350 wouldn't come with such courses because their schools didn't offer these so it goes down to 1000 students.

It's not just math majors, though. Engineers, premeds, even social sciences kids at ivies have a surprising% that did post-BC math, typically one year of MV/LA (2yrs is much more rare). The top third of the prep schools and magnets have this as a track, not DE at a CC but a phD who teaches MV and LA , one semester each, to seniors. It is not at all rare here. No unhooked kids in the high school get into ivy/T10 without being in that top math group, and the group is so large that most of them "settle" for a T11-20, along with the ones who finish HS with BC calc, the second highest math group. Ending HS with "only" AB calc is the the second lowest math group. They are below average rigor and go to BC Northeastern and BU, but those are popular as they are regional. There are over 500 kids who graduate with one post-BC math year from the Boston city and surrounding suburbian schools, not with any summer olympiads or skipping, just a normal progression of the math track

Which is why I'm so glad I didn't send my kids to these prep school/magnets that offer MV/LA. Ours only offers up to AP Calc BC and each year we have kids going to Ivies + Stanford + MIT + a ton to our top flagship. Kids who end of AP Calc AB are also in this group.

Glad your kids learned less? Okay.

Yes, I'm glad my kids are not learning MV and LA in high school. If they went to such prep school then they would have to be in that track to be competitive, even if they have no interest in stem or math.

This is the issue.

Accelerating 3-4 years should be a rare exception for the truly gifted kids. Not a “track”.

As technology and careers in STEM involve more skills, it really would be good to start having kids more advanced in math. It's amazing how American colleges can take students underperforming in Math coursework loads to taking graduate level math, but we could catch up with the rest of the west.

The course title isn't advancement. There's was more depth in algebra 1 when it was a HS class. There was more depth in calc when it was primarily a college course. The race for acceleration is a feedback loop that dumbs things down.

I don't really see how. Community College professors have no incentive to dumb down Vector Calculus, and they are dedicated teaching faculty which makes them great fits to teach these advanced students.

Professors have no say, the colleges buy a canned curriculum and hire them to process the scores and answer questions. You end up with a vector calc class where every answer is numeric. It's much cheaper for the schools.

I didn't grow up in DC, does Dual credit mean something different here? In my home district, you just take the class at the Community college, no changing curriculums. If the class was illegitimate, then that'd be an illegitimate course for their normal students which will hurt them when they transfer...

Same concept, but online is here to stay. My DC is a math major, his department head said they don’t trust the content knowledge of incoming students (although forced to accept the credits). Specifically mentioned a Bay Area CC.