What’s happening with the old White Flint mall development?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

TINY! Wait, actually, not tiny.

It is by today’s standards and if you’re going to YIMBY the housing you need to YIMBY the schools too.

What standards are those? The MCPS preferred range of enrollment for high schools is 1,600-2,400, and there is constant complaining on the MCPS forum that the high schools are too big.

High schools have gotten bigger all over the state over the years and it’s a much more efficient use of staff and land if each high school is built for more students. I imagine that the former is one of the reasons MCPS likes smaller high schools, because every high schools needs a minimum number of senior staff. There are different opinions on this, but in my view all that really matters is whether the school has enough space for the students assigned there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

It's so crowded, nobody drives there anymore!

If you don't like being in a car on a road with lots of other people in cars on that road, I suggest you consider

1. Metro (there's one right there in downtown Bethesda, helpfully named "Bethesda")
2. bicycle
3. parking in one of the many, many parking garages in downtown Bethesda that are a five-minute walk from your destination

Hi. Have you been on the Red Line lately? Not terribly accessible.

Bike? Sure. What’s the route you propose with two young children from Silver Spring?

Park? Yes, that would be great. Except the garages are full or close to it on the weekends and it’s a zoo. People yelling at people to leave a spot if they’re sitting in their car too long …. No, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

The bolded must be part of the council’s attainable housing strategy. Once no one with money wants to live or send their kids to school in an area it’s bound to become much more affordable.

This is what I’m wondering, too. MoCo has shriveled in comparison to what it was 20 years ago and even 10 years ago. Now it’s just expensive but without the charm, attractions, and businesses. Yes, things change, but MoCo is stagnant. Driving through Wheaton, Bethesda, Silver Spring, and Rockville yesterday and the county looks trashy. Medians overgrown, so many closed businesses, weed dispensaries and vape stores all over. Every strip mall looks run down. Sadly, panhandlers at multiple intersections.

Today in NoVa and it’s very different. Shopping and retail is vibrant. Good mix of high/low end stores. Streets and medians are clean and maintained. Restaurants are bustling, people sitting outside. Very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone should suggest to them - the St. James 2. They will make $ hand over fist.

This is BRILLIANT! Would save parents from schlepping all the way to St. James in Alexandria for team sports. So many families I know would leap at the chance, including ours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

The bolded must be part of the council’s attainable housing strategy. Once no one with money wants to live or send their kids to school in an area it’s bound to become much more affordable.

This is what I’m wondering, too. MoCo has shriveled in comparison to what it was 20 years ago and even 10 years ago. Now it’s just expensive but without the charm, attractions, and businesses. Yes, things change, but MoCo is stagnant. Driving through Wheaton, Bethesda, Silver Spring, and Rockville yesterday and the county looks trashy. Medians overgrown, so many closed businesses, weed dispensaries and vape stores all over. Every strip mall looks run down. Sadly, panhandlers at multiple intersections.

Today in NoVa and it’s very different. Shopping and retail is vibrant. Good mix of high/low end stores. Streets and medians are clean and maintained. Restaurants are bustling, people sitting outside. Very different.

Where in NoVA can we see these things? I am pretty familiar with Arlington and Fairfax counties and their shopping and retail does not match what you've described.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone should suggest to them - the St. James 2. They will make $ hand over fist.

This is BRILLIANT! Would save parents from schlepping all the way to St. James in Alexandria for team sports. So many families I know would leap at the chance, including ours.

There’s already a jr one down the road on Wisconsin Ave.

[Anonymous]

PP, the St. James in downtown Bethesda might work for adults but I am talking about kids doing club teams, clinics and tournaments. That venue doesn’t suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

TINY! Wait, actually, not tiny.

It is by today’s standards and if you’re going to YIMBY the housing you need to YIMBY the schools too.

What standards are those? The MCPS preferred range of enrollment for high schools is 1,600-2,400, and there is constant complaining on the MCPS forum that the high schools are too big.

High schools have gotten bigger all over the state over the years and it’s a much more efficient use of staff and land if each high school is built for more students. I imagine that the former is one of the reasons MCPS likes smaller high schools, because every high schools needs a minimum number of senior staff. There are different opinions on this, but in my view all that really matters is whether the school has enough space for the students assigned there.

I can’t find it now but there’s research showing size of high school (beyond a certain minimum size) associated with worst outcomes. This is why some very large HS break into school within school programs so kids don’t feel so llost in the shuffle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

It's so crowded, nobody drives there anymore!

If you don't like being in a car on a road with lots of other people in cars on that road, I suggest you consider

1. Metro (there's one right there in downtown Bethesda, helpfully named "Bethesda")
2. bicycle
3. parking in one of the many, many parking garages in downtown Bethesda that are a five-minute walk from your destination

Hi. Have you been on the Red Line lately? Not terribly accessible.

Bike? Sure. What’s the route you propose with two young children from Silver Spring?

Park? Yes, that would be great. Except the garages are full or close to it on the weekends and it’s a zoo. People yelling at people to leave a spot if they’re sitting in their car too long …. No, thank you.

Have I been on the Red Line lately? Yes. It's totally accessible - aside from this summer's temporary Red Line shutdown between Takoma and Glenmont, between June 1 and August 31.

Bike? Not so easy from Silver Spring right now, I agree, but the Capital Crescent Trail will be open and complete in a few years. And there will be the Purple Line too, of course!

Park? No, the garages are not full. There is an absurdly excessive amount of car parking in downtown Bethesda. https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/DOT-Parking/Parking-Facilities/BethesdaPLD.html Though if the garages actually were full (which they're not), that would only confirm that Bethesda actually is accessible (by car) to people who don't live in Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

It's so crowded, nobody drives there anymore!

If you don't like being in a car on a road with lots of other people in cars on that road, I suggest you consider

1. Metro (there's one right there in downtown Bethesda, helpfully named "Bethesda")
2. bicycle
3. parking in one of the many, many parking garages in downtown Bethesda that are a five-minute walk from your destination

Hi. Have you been on the Red Line lately? Not terribly accessible.

Bike? Sure. What’s the route you propose with two young children from Silver Spring?

Park? Yes, that would be great. Except the garages are full or close to it on the weekends and it’s a zoo. People yelling at people to leave a spot if they’re sitting in their car too long …. No, thank you.

Bike from SS? Easy. Rock creek park to Strathmore or back roads near Randolph. It’s actually way more pleasant and safer than the Beltway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

TINY! Wait, actually, not tiny.

It is by today’s standards and if you’re going to YIMBY the housing you need to YIMBY the schools too.

What standards are those? The MCPS preferred range of enrollment for high schools is 1,600-2,400, and there is constant complaining on the MCPS forum that the high schools are too big.

High schools have gotten bigger all over the state over the years and it’s a much more efficient use of staff and land if each high school is built for more students. I imagine that the former is one of the reasons MCPS likes smaller high schools, because every high schools needs a minimum number of senior staff. There are different opinions on this, but in my view all that really matters is whether the school has enough space for the students assigned there.

I can’t find it now but there’s research showing size of high school (beyond a certain minimum size) associated with worst outcomes. This is why some very large HS break into school within school programs so kids don’t feel so llost in the shuffle.

*worse not worst

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

It's so crowded, nobody drives there anymore!

If you don't like being in a car on a road with lots of other people in cars on that road, I suggest you consider

1. Metro (there's one right there in downtown Bethesda, helpfully named "Bethesda")
2. bicycle
3. parking in one of the many, many parking garages in downtown Bethesda that are a five-minute walk from your destination

Hi. Have you been on the Red Line lately? Not terribly accessible.

Bike? Sure. What’s the route you propose with two young children from Silver Spring?

Park? Yes, that would be great. Except the garages are full or close to it on the weekends and it’s a zoo. People yelling at people to leave a spot if they’re sitting in their car too long …. No, thank you.

Bike from SS? Easy. Rock creek park to Strathmore or back roads near Randolph. It’s actually way more pleasant and safer than the Beltway.

Rock Creek Park to Strathmore is not an easy way to get from Silver Spring to downtown Bethesda. Back roads near Randolph is doable but not pleasant. More pleasant than the Beltway, but most things are! There need to be better bike connections between west of Rock Creek and east of Rock Creek.

I'm the PP who suggested Metro/bike/walk in downtown Bethesda, and the reason I hate driving in downtown Bethesda is cars. If I were the only car on the road, I wouldn't hate it. But instead there are tons of other cars on the road, which proves that lots of people are actually fine driving in downtown Bethesda. I am not one of them, so I take Metro, or I bike.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

It's so crowded, nobody drives there anymore!

If you don't like being in a car on a road with lots of other people in cars on that road, I suggest you consider

1. Metro (there's one right there in downtown Bethesda, helpfully named "Bethesda")
2. bicycle
3. parking in one of the many, many parking garages in downtown Bethesda that are a five-minute walk from your destination

Hi. Have you been on the Red Line lately? Not terribly accessible.

Bike? Sure. What’s the route you propose with two young children from Silver Spring?

Park? Yes, that would be great. Except the garages are full or close to it on the weekends and it’s a zoo. People yelling at people to leave a spot if they’re sitting in their car too long …. No, thank you.

Bike from SS? Easy. Rock creek park to Strathmore or back roads near Randolph. It’s actually way more pleasant and safer than the Beltway.

It'd be great if the freaking Georgetown Branch trail ever reopened (now, next to Purple line, which is why it's been shut down for years). The detour route really sucks... sooo many turns.

[Anonymous]

I saw some pictures today!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/metro-partners-with-montgomery-county-to-develop-area-around-north-bethesda-station/3678219/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_DCBrand&fbclid=IwY2xjawEVxEpleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHT-hSv6WwXNtxB_Nh-PxdzQqKCRSiPuCKFB84JeuM-dqBCbRCoXR8kxe3g_aem_x51Ocpx1CH_ps5t3AOvalA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I saw some pictures today!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/metro-partners-with-montgomery-county-to-develop-area-around-north-bethesda-station/3678219/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_DCBrand&fbclid=IwY2xjawEVxEpleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHT-hSv6WwXNtxB_Nh-PxdzQqKCRSiPuCKFB84JeuM-dqBCbRCoXR8kxe3g_aem_x51Ocpx1CH_ps5t3AOvalA

That's the area next to the metro station. The old White Flint mall site is a few blocks south of there.