What’s happening with the old White Flint mall development?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is happening with the site where White Flint Mall used to be? It’s sitting empty for years now and just a bunch of overgrowth and rubble.

Did some Googling but the articles and posts were a few years old. Is the plan for a walkable retail area still in play? It’s an eyesore and drags down the whole strip.

There was something in the news about this development. Wasn't the plan to develop a Health Sciences campus either for a university or for additional research space for existing Biotech firms in MoCo? They renamed the metro station from White Flint to North Bethesda station.

The new UMd Institute for Health Computing signed a 10-year lease earlier this year but the building isn’t on the old White Flint property. It isn’t even a reasonable walk from the old White Flint Mall property or to a metro station. That the lease is for 10 years should tell you something about how far off development at the old White Flint Mall property. Then there’s the question of whether biotechs even want to move out of their office parks, which offer cheaper rents and more flexible space than compact urban commercial development does.

That’s on Executive Blvd and not near White Flint.
https://mpower.maryland.edu/new-institute-blending-health-care-ai-to-take-office-space-in-rockville/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is happening with the site where White Flint Mall used to be? It’s sitting empty for years now and just a bunch of overgrowth and rubble.

Did some Googling but the articles and posts were a few years old. Is the plan for a walkable retail area still in play? It’s an eyesore and drags down the whole strip.

There was something in the news about this development. Wasn't the plan to develop a Health Sciences campus either for a university or for additional research space for existing Biotech firms in MoCo? They renamed the metro station from White Flint to North Bethesda station.

The new UMd Institute for Health Computing signed a 10-year lease earlier this year but the building isn’t on the old White Flint property. It isn’t even a reasonable walk from the old White Flint Mall property or to a metro station. That the lease is for 10 years should tell you something about how far off development at the old White Flint Mall property. Then there’s the question of whether biotechs even want to move out of their office parks, which offer cheaper rents and more flexible space than compact urban commercial development does.

That’s on Executive Blvd and not near White Flint.
https://mpower.maryland.edu/new-institute-blending-health-care-ai-to-take-office-space-in-rockville/

That’s what I said. It is supposed to be the anchor of the White Flint redevelopment but it’s not even in White Flint and they’re not planning for it to be there anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is happening with the site where White Flint Mall used to be? It’s sitting empty for years now and just a bunch of overgrowth and rubble.

Did some Googling but the articles and posts were a few years old. Is the plan for a walkable retail area still in play? It’s an eyesore and drags down the whole strip.

There was something in the news about this development. Wasn't the plan to develop a Health Sciences campus either for a university or for additional research space for existing Biotech firms in MoCo? They renamed the metro station from White Flint to North Bethesda station.

The new UMd Institute for Health Computing signed a 10-year lease earlier this year but the building isn’t on the old White Flint property. It isn’t even a reasonable walk from the old White Flint Mall property or to a metro station. That the lease is for 10 years should tell you something about how far off development at the old White Flint Mall property. Then there’s the question of whether biotechs even want to move out of their office parks, which offer cheaper rents and more flexible space than compact urban commercial development does.

That’s on Executive Blvd and not near White Flint.
https://mpower.maryland.edu/new-institute-blending-health-care-ai-to-take-office-space-in-rockville/

That’s what I said. It is supposed to be the anchor of the White Flint redevelopment but it’s not even in White Flint and they’re not planning for it to be there anytime soon.

Aha! Sorry for misunderstanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone should suggest to them - the St. James 2. They will make $ hand over fist.

This is a pretty great idea. How much money does Maryland lose to Virginia in sports revenue?

The St James also employs around 1,100 people and is a tournament destination. You could build out some shopping and a food court around it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The site isn’t commercially viable right now. The fact that it isn’t commercially viable tells you everything that you need to know about Montgomery County’s economy.

Alternative explanation: the property owners are sitting on it, waiting for ... something.

If the site were commercially viable now they wouldn’t be sitting and waiting. They would be building and making money.

Nope. That's something I don't understand about MoCo, lots of large pieces of commercial property that are just allowed to deteriorate and owners don't seem to care.

Land banking is not a only-in-MoCo phenomenon.

It’s harmful to communities and to the housing supply, which is why it should be taxed. You’d think that the YIMBYs would be screaming loudly about this at least in the interest of intellectual consistency but they never do.

Then you're not paying attention. Many Georgists are YIMBYs/many YIMBYs are Georgists.

You must not be paying attention because the YIMBYs we have in Montgomery County are supply siders, especially the most influential ones. Friedson himself has said that he only wants to offer carrots, without any sticks. As a result, there’s comparatively little risk in banking land and waiting to build, because there’s a widespread belief that the county council will bail you out with a subsidy if building costs go up and will never impose a punitive cost itself. The incentives are already stacked against maximizing supply (because a shortage is more profitable than a glut) and the council has reliably come in reduce the risks of waiting, making waiting the clearly better choice.

Friedson is not every YIMBY. I'm not sure he's even any YIMBY. Has he ever said he was?

Well, I think that he made that pretty clear when he spoke about the “attainable housing” initiative as an invited guest of the Coalition for Smarter Growth, February Montgomery for All meeting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKknuErS0rE

He can own it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone should suggest to them - the St. James 2. They will make $ hand over fist.

This is a pretty great idea. How much money does Maryland lose to Virginia in sports revenue?

The St James also employs around 1,100 people and is a tournament destination. You could build out some shopping and a food court around it.

You lost them at jobs. Can’t have any job growth happening here. That would be terrible.

In all seriousness though, the energy tax probably is enough to deter such a project.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

The bolded must be part of the council’s attainable housing strategy. Once no one with money wants to live or send their kids to school in an area it’s bound to become much more affordable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need affordable housing there

We need business there. But nobody wants to do business in MoCo

This is ridiculous. There are an absolute ton of developments going up in bethesda, all along rockville pike, kensington, really everywhere you go. This is clearly an issue with THIS parcel.

We have residential developments going up in those places. What we need is commercial. The low business demand is suppressing both commercial and residential development in MoCo.

Exactly, PP. People keep citing Bethesda. Bethesda is singular and the development there is constrained to, what, eight square blocks? It’s also not terribly accessible to people that don’t live around there - congested, hard to park.

Rockville Pike used to be a “go to” for people all over MoCo with a great mix of higher end and lower end retail and restaurants and the promised retail development at White Flint would have been game changing. A boon to other businesses and residents.

Now there’s a massive crater in that lot, the Pike is slowly but surely becoming lower end retail and cheap food places … It looks awful and unattractive. Pike and Rose is nice but an island along that route. Montgomery Mall - not on the Pike but adjacent - is also dwindling. Nicer stores are closing and being replaced with fast clothing stores and the like.

Neighbors in Silver Spring are driving to Tysons to shop at a place with more of a high-low mix of stores and restaurants.

As a resident of MoCo it’s infuriating that the county isn’t doing more to promote businesses. This is what has driven growth across NoVa and transform areas that were once dwindling into vibrant communities. Think Clarendon, Crystal City, and Mosaic. Great for residents and great for people who want jobs.

It's so crowded, nobody drives there anymore!

If you don't like being in a car on a road with lots of other people in cars on that road, I suggest you consider

1. Metro (there's one right there in downtown Bethesda, helpfully named "Bethesda")
2. bicycle
3. parking in one of the many, many parking garages in downtown Bethesda that are a five-minute walk from your destination

[Anonymous]

With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

TINY! Wait, actually, not tiny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

TINY! Wait, actually, not tiny.

It is by today’s standards and if you’re going to YIMBY the housing you need to YIMBY the schools too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With all of the increased density the county should take part of that lands and build some more schools. I seriously don’t know where they expect to put all these kids when they are building all these apartments and multi family units. Then they complain that there’s no place to build new schools, but there was all that empty space when Marriot moved (which now will be apartments) and I can think of a dozen other places where they’ve torn down old office space or churches and just increased residential density without adding new schools. The one tiny Woodward is going to be overflowing before its even opened.

The one tiny Woodward will have a capacity of 2,700 students.

Roughly 1 in 5 households in Montgomery County include children under 18, i.e., 4 out of 5 households in Montgomery County don't have any children under 18.

And then, of course, there are the posters on the zoning thread who keep insisting that the county should not allow multi-unit housing in currently single-unit areas, because families don't want multi-unit housing.

Woodward's capacity was reduced to 2249.

TINY! Wait, actually, not tiny.

It is by today’s standards and if you’re going to YIMBY the housing you need to YIMBY the schools too.

What standards are those? The MCPS preferred range of enrollment for high schools is 1,600-2,400, and there is constant complaining on the MCPS forum that the high schools are too big.