Undergrad doesn’t matter

[Anonymous]

Go research Yale law school in 2021. There is a PDF out there that showed how many kids at Yale by undergraduate institution. It’s the only time I have seen this in writing from a top law school (and they stopped reporting it)…so don’t try to claim Yale is different so ignore it. It’s really the only referencable document.

63% of the law school came from top 20 schools and the rest of the class was just one or two students tops spread across like 200 schools.

The top feeder by far was Yale undergrad. The top feeder by far of all top law schools is their own undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go research Yale law school in 2021. There is a PDF out there that showed how many kids at Yale by undergraduate institution. It’s the only time I have seen this in writing from a top law school (and they stopped reporting it)…so don’t try to claim Yale is different so ignore it. It’s really the only referencable document.

63% of the law school came from top 20 schools and the rest of the class was just one or two students tops spread across like 200 schools.

The top feeder by far was Yale undergrad. The top feeder by far of all top law schools is their own undergrad.

Wow that left a gross taste in my mouth. I attended one of the higher schools on the list, but Harvard and Yale being 25% of the admits that year is disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go research Yale law school in 2021. There is a PDF out there that showed how many kids at Yale by undergraduate institution. It’s the only time I have seen this in writing from a top law school (and they stopped reporting it)…so don’t try to claim Yale is different so ignore it. It’s really the only referencable document.

63% of the law school came from top 20 schools and the rest of the class was just one or two students tops spread across like 200 schools.

The top feeder by far was Yale undergrad. The top feeder by far of all top law schools is their own undergrad.

Wow that left a gross taste in my mouth. I attended one of the higher schools on the list, but Harvard and Yale being 25% of the admits that year is disgusting.

It’s not admits…it’s the entire law school at that time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

Please tell us what undergrad you went to, so we can avoid it, since they don't teach basic statistics or critical thinking there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

You clearly didn't go there or you would know what is wrong with your post. There are only 147 undergrad institutions given there. The entering class of Harvard Law is 560. The remaining 413 come predominantly from only from the Ivies + Stanford with Harvard undergrads making up about 30% of the entire class (in my year). So if you really want to go there you go to Harvard undergrad, then Yale, Stanford, etc. The leftover 147 are the valedictorians or token reps to fill in the rest of the class.

Point taken about the class size. But the point still stands (from the misconception on the other thread) that almost all of the class is not from top schools.

And this 147 you speak of - you know it’s only 1 person from each of these schools?

Yes, I was one of them. Like you, from an unimpressive SLAC, but no 1 in my class, Rhodes, 4.0, high LSAT, etc.

How can you be #1 in your class as an undergrad? Many students get straight As.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

Please tell us what undergrad you went to, so we can avoid it, since they don't teach basic statistics or critical thinking there.

Someone on the other thread said most, IF NOT ALL of the students at top programs come from top undergrad schools. This simply refutes that.

[Anonymous]

Our law review (so-called main journal) over thirty years ago had people from a variety of schools. It was a top law school with very good employment outcomes. About 60 percent of the law review were from the Ivy League, along with people like me from somewhat competitive (back then) schools (Duke). There were grads from Penn State, Western Washington, WVU and BYU, but they were likely (no way of verifying) the "best" students in their class. So frankly they could have gone anywhere and done well. The Penn State guy for example was a top flight NCAA swimmer on scholarship, as was I on athletic scholarship for track. The WVU guy was a national debate champion, and the BYU guy has a perfect LSAT score despite being legally blind. The Western Washington grad was again likely the "best student" there. The sole Harvard guy on the law review edit board was the captain of the golf team (and easily the most socially adept of all of us). A pretty eclectic bunch. I don't think anyone cared where you went to undergrad (as the BigLaw partner relates above) except that the experiences of some made them very interesting people. The person first in our class (Notes editor) went to West Point, and her husband was a bona fide West Point boxing champ and she carried a photo of him in the ring! She was the most organized person I have ever met, and that peer experience was helpful to me. But you can with luck run across that anywhere. Another member of our editorial board went to a small Carroll College, and she was and remains incredibly competent, a Fortune 50 General Counsel. Politically the editorial board skewed to the left but politics were not as divisive back then and frankly as a middle of the road type I admired my colleagues' intellectual ability and their varied backgrounds. We all respected each other, which I appreciated because i was a poor student from a single mother home without many social graces. We did not have much diversity except for my one class ahead of me track colleague who was an All American from Cornell and who is today a law professor and a pre-eminent expert on the legal aspects of performance enhancing drug testing in sport worldwide. Again, all kinds of backgrounds and schools - and all in general very bright and hard working people. Do well wherever you go, and become comfortable competing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

Yes, not all from the current crop of Pell grant, equity darlings that USNWR dotes on but all will be at the top of the graduation class at reputable but sometimes lesser known schools and have great LSAT scores.

All big fishes in whatever size pond they were swimming in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

Please tell us what undergrad you went to, so we can avoid it, since they don't teach basic statistics or critical thinking there.

Someone on the other thread said most, IF NOT ALL of the students at top programs come from top undergrad schools. This simply refutes that.

It doesn’t refute anything. That’s your problem.

Show us how many kids from each school (as Yale used to provide) feed into Harvard Law.

Oh yeah…you can’t.

BTW, why is number of schools represented at Harvard Law even the yardstick for this thread that “undergrad doesn’t matter”? Law school sucks and being a lawyer generally sucks…so 98% of graduates of any school avoid it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peers matter.

THIS.

You can find a peer group at any school.

Sure, but tell me with a straight face that your experience finding your peer group at MIT is not much different than trying to find your peer group at Alabama.

You desperately don’t want to believe this isn’t true, but, yes, you find your peer group at Alabama. They are obviously much, much smaller in numbers than MIT, but like any school, they are there. In many ways, it is almost easier to find each other, because it is pretty clear who your peers are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Law school admissions are not a good metric by which to determine the value of undergrad degrees from particular universities. LSAT and GPA are all that matters.

By and large, in 2024 if you go to a school that's roughly ranked in the top 100 or so, your opportunities are not going to be limited by the brand name of your school. Sure, Wall Street remains a bit of an anachronism. But generally, every industry is aware that there are very talented students at all state flagships, particularly in honors programs, and that many, many stellar students have chosen "lesser" ranked schools because of the merit they offered.

When undergrad degrees cost $400,000, smart students are making very different choices today compared to 25 years ago. And most industries and Fortune 500 companies recognize that. As long as it's a top 100 school, it's all good. Only IB, and to a somewhat lesser extent consulting, remain fixated on the "traditional" 10 or so prestige schools. But real talent largely goes elsewhere anyway these days.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

You clearly didn't go there or you would know what is wrong with your post. There are only 147 undergrad institutions given there. The entering class of Harvard Law is 560. The remaining 413 come predominantly from only from the Ivies + Stanford with Harvard undergrads making up about 30% of the entire class (in my year). So if you really want to go there you go to Harvard undergrad, then Yale, Stanford, etc. The leftover 147 are the valedictorians or token reps to fill in the rest of the class.

Point taken about the class size. But the point still stands (from the misconception on the other thread) that almost all of the class is not from top schools.

And this 147 you speak of - you know it’s only 1 person from each of these schools?

Yes, I was one of them. Like you, from an unimpressive SLAC, but no 1 in my class, Rhodes, 4.0, high LSAT, etc.

So wait - your rational is because you are the only one that came from your specific school, this must be the case for every other school on the list? You can’t be serious.

That was certainly the case when I attended HLS. 560 in a class. Most from Harvard and Ivy and Stanford undergrad. And yes 140 or so valedictorians from SLACs. I was certainly the only one from mine. My SLAC sent someone to HLS only once every ten years or so. Maybe 15.

DP. My T10 send many to HLS, and many to similar law schools. The bottom of the T14 is considered “mid” from this university. It is just how it is, a pipeline. Undergrad matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A spinoff of sorts from the chasing merit thread.

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/undergraduate-institutions/

Look at all the schools that are represented in Harvard’s L1 class for 23-24.

You don’t need a highly ranked school to get into an excellent grad program. This isn’t 80% of the class from T50’s. These schools are all over the board in ranking.

You clearly didn't go there or you would know what is wrong with your post. There are only 147 undergrad institutions given there. The entering class of Harvard Law is 560. The remaining 413 come predominantly from only from the Ivies + Stanford with Harvard undergrads making up about 30% of the entire class (in my year). So if you really want to go there you go to Harvard undergrad, then Yale, Stanford, etc. The leftover 147 are the valedictorians or token reps to fill in the rest of the class.

Point taken about the class size. But the point still stands (from the misconception on the other thread) that almost all of the class is not from top schools.

And this 147 you speak of - you know it’s only 1 person from each of these schools?

Yes, I was one of them. Like you, from an unimpressive SLAC, but no 1 in my class, Rhodes, 4.0, high LSAT, etc.

So wait - your rational is because you are the only one that came from your specific school, this must be the case for every other school on the list? You can’t be serious.

That was certainly the case when I attended HLS. 560 in a class. Most from Harvard and Ivy and Stanford undergrad. And yes 140 or so valedictorians from SLACs. I was certainly the only one from mine. My SLAC sent someone to HLS only once every ten years or so. Maybe 15.

DP. My T10 send many to HLS, and many to similar law schools. The bottom of the T14 is considered “mid” from this university. It is just how it is, a pipeline. Undergrad matters.

This is a weird WSJ listing, but here are the Top 20 private undergraduate schools and public undergraduate schools that produce law schools grads with the highest median lawyer incomes.

In theory, this reflects both the numbers of kids from these schools attending law school (and likely top law schools) and the jobs they receive after law school.

For private colleges, only Brigham Young is an outlier...the remainder are all the top undergraduate colleges.

Folks...everyone who claims an undergraduate degree doesn't matter...please, find something empirical to back it up. The problem is it seems impossible. Even if you look at the number of Fortune 500 CEOs, yes like 80% didn't go to a top 10 school (though like 50% did attend a Top 100)...however, statistically, that still means like 10 schools account for 20% of all Fortune 500 CEOs...which implies that it is a massive benefit to attend one of those Top 10 schools.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/stanford-berkeley-top-colleges-for-high-paying-jobs-in-law-457cc225?mod=ig_collegepay

[Anonymous]

Going to a top school doesn't provide much benefit. Being talented and driven enough to be admitted to a top school is the magic.

[Anonymous]

HLS grad here. Law school admissions are mostly numbers driven. If your GPA and LSAT are at or above the school's 75th percentile, you will probably get in regardless of where you went to undergrad.

When I was at HLS, about a third of the class had attended Ivies for undergrad, a third had gone to other well known schools (including top state schools like Berkeley and Michigan), and a third or perhaps a bit less had attended other schools. That's mostly because people who go to top undergrads are disproportionately likely to get high LSAT scores. HLS sometimes offers a bit of leeway (especially on GPA) for people who went to a few tippy-top undergrads, but a 3.9/175 from a random undergrad will almost always get in over a 3.5/170 from Stanford.

YLS is different because it has a very small class and professors play an important role in admissions (and, as you might expect, some YLS professors are snobs). But for every school from HLS on down numbers are king.