In your opinion, how should the elite colleges decide conduct admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one's educational experience is enhanced by a class of drones. That being said, for highly selective schools I'd want to see the stress on class rigor and being challenged, GPA, SAT/ACT test scores, interesting ECs that really demonstrate some passion and talent, teacher recommendations, and can they write a compelling essay.

I'd get rid of legacy, significant wealth, and nearly all admissions advantages for athletes. If Duke wants a competitive basketball team, fine. I understand that's a special thing. Same with Notre Dame football. But crew and tennis and lacrosse and soccer and Columbia football are pretty ridiculous. The SLACs are usually appalling with this. Nearly half of Williams and Amherst are "athletes."

I'd also put way less emphasis on race even in the post SC era. Context always matters, but have seen way too many mediocre private school students getting spots solely because they check a box. It's never the brilliant kid from SE or the immigrant in Gaithersburg with the 1300 that gets into a T20. I would, however, really like to find the first generation and low income smart kids. That's a special group of students.

I'd also limit the international admits for undergrad. Grad school is a different story. But for undergrad, no student has ever said all that's missing from my college experience is more wealthy students from mainland China and the Persian Gulf.

Basically, less class. More talent.

You want "talent" but you kept ranting about athletes. You do know that athletic performance requires talent, right? So much so that as a general rule only about 7% of high school athletes have the talent to compete at any level in college.

And Amherst and Williams athletes are, in fact, genuine athletes not "athletes" in skeptical quotes as you put it.

I'm sorry your kid got cut from the 8th grade club team but why haven't you gotten over it by now?

Actually, both kids are at T20s. And they are both very athletic. States, varsity, etc. One recruited by D3 schools. But they chose D1 schools for the education. Best of luck to your "athletic" child.

But I still think it's a waste of space for tiny little D3 schools like Amherst and Williams to devote nearly half their spots to "athletes."

Ivies are D1. My kid got in and then went out for the team and made it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No recruited athletes - sports as just another EC. No legacy. Standardized test required as part of admissions decisions. One application deadline - no ED/EA/REA. Schools can only have one supplemental essay and one LOC that must be from a teacher.

Admissions staff say they care about the mental and emotional well-being of the students but the system they are part is f is almost abusive.

It is honestly shocking colleges can get as many applications as they do, making students run in circles with different deadlines, admissions types, hidden admissions practices with relatively vague advice that lead students to pick up rigorous classes, many different "impactful" extracurriculars (but not too many of course, because that is bad for some reason), etc. It's all a game that is genuinely detrimental to highschool students and needs to have some standardization.

You can choose to not have the game be "detrimental to HS students". My own kid did mostly STEM APs (skipped AP Eng/APUSH/APGovt/AP FL) and skipped the others to have some balance and do what they wanted to focus on (Their EC). They prepped for the SAT for 4 weeks, took it once and was done.

They got into all their Targets and safeties. ED1---Deferred then rejected RD. WL at 2nd choice. NEU--Global Scholars (1 year in London). So it played out exactly as expected. My kid had 3 great choices to choose from (2 targets and top safety). I'd say they ended up where they belonged. Top stats kid who didn't "win the lottery" at single digit schools, but only outright rejected at 1 school (T10).
We chose to let our kid skip the non-STEM APs, because it's not healthy to sleep only 2-3 hours each night (and those would have taken a ton of time, they are time consuming courses---for the STEM courses it wasn't much more work than a normal Calc/Science course and my kid got A/5s. ). We let them drop Spanish when it didn't work in their schedule and the alternate was a crappy teacher (they'd had previously---really really bad).
It's your choice. My kid enjoyed HS and got into a great T35 ranked school. They are happy with the choice, as they might not have gotten into a T10 with even the extra courses

Your kid is not fully educated. Nobody should be skipping APs in core subjects that young. History, English, world religions, ethics etc. are part of what makes a fully well-rounded individual. This is why elite schools pick kids that have As in all AP subjects vs one-dimensional kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some people care a lot about the SAT, while others think the extracurriculars are what count. What do you think?

40 point scale

ACT or SAT - required, max. two attempts (two total, not two ACT and two SAT), no superscoring, max. 10 points.

ACT:
36: 10 points
34 - 35: 8 points
31 - 33: 6 points
26 - 30: 4 points
20 - 25: 2 points
18 - 20: 1 point
Below 20: 0 points

SAT:
1580 - 1600: 10 points
1500 - 1570: 8 points
1400 - 1490: 6 points
1200 - 1390: 4 points
1000 - 1190: 2 points
900 - 990: 1 point
Below 900: 0 points

GPA - unweighted, max. 10 points.

GPA:
3.90 - 4.00: 10 points
3.70 - 3.89: 8 points
3.55 - 3.69: 6 points
3.40 - 3.54: 4 points
3.25 - 3.39: 2 points
3.00 - 3.24: 1 point
Below 3.00: 0 points

Rigor: AP classes, IB classes, DE classes.
(I know nothing of IB and DE enrollment classes, so an equivalency would need to be created).

11+ AP tests with min. 4: 10 points
8 - 10 with min. 3: 7 points
5 - 7 with min. 3: 5 points
3 - 4 with min. 3: 2 points
1 - 2 with min. 3: 1 point

Essays: 0 - 10 points (subjective)

Varsity sport(s), min. 2 years: 4 points
Paid job, min. 2 years: 3 points
Club officer, min. 2 years: 2 points
Volunteer hours, min. 25: 1 point

Tally it up.

45 - 50: Top 10
40 - 45: 11 - 25
35 - 40: 26 - 50
30 - 35: 51 - 100
25 - 30: 100 - 200
20 - 25: 200 - 350
15 - 20: Community College

STupid plan. You give too much credence to SAT/ACT. A 1570 vs 1600 is no real difference. I'll take the 1570 or 1550 who does something over a 1600 drone who only knows how to be perfect on tests. Colleges know that, and that is why they don't care once you make the score cut (somewhere around 1500ish).

If you want a system like this, go to Europe/china/india. You can have your kid Tracked at age 12---have a bad day of testing and no chance at college or STEM/medical

Yup. Some people are so obsessed with these tests. I posted earlier about this. I taught test prep for Princeton Review. The tests are not an indicator of acumen and only some indicator of ability. One data point among many. I think there are people who have prepped their kids throughout their childhoods for all kinds of tests (like magnet admissions-- my kid remembers all the kids whose patents had them take courses from A++ for Blair exam). And, some may not do much SAT prep, but only because kid has been doing magnets, CTY, AOPS etc and essentially prepped along the way. But, because all this helps tge kid be an excellent test taker, these parents want them to count for more and come up with inane posts like op's and hare-brained schemes like PP's. I wish these people would invest their time in something more fruitful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The SAT needs to go back to being an IQ test and should be the basis of admission along with gpa. No more extracurriculars! They are turning high schoolers into freaks who can do research but can barely process information.

God no. That's the last thing these schools want. Talk about a class of freaks, a bunch of kids with great SATs and perfect GPAs and zero going on outside of that

And the fact that SAT has never measured IQ. That is a false narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The SAT needs to go back to being an IQ test and should be the basis of admission along with gpa. No more extracurriculars! They are turning high schoolers into freaks who can do research but can barely process information.

It never was an IQ test. Debunked. Inform yourself.

The old SAT with the analogies section was basically an IQ test. It correlated as well with IQ tests as IQ tests did with other IQ tests. The changes made in the last 15 or so years have made this less and less true. There’s still a pretty good correlation, but it’s not as high as it used to be.

Analogies are the easiest section to coach. The old test had to change its name from "Aptitude " to "Assessment " because it was proven nor to measure IQ. This was in the 70s I think. Not an IQ test. Wasn't then, isn't now. Stop promoting fake news.

[Anonymous]

Make everyone fill out individual school applications on a typewriter. After doing 4-5, you kid will have no interest in applying to any other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No recruited athletes - sports as just another EC. No legacy. Standardized test required as part of admissions decisions. One application deadline - no ED/EA/REA. Schools can only have one supplemental essay and one LOC that must be from a teacher.

Admissions staff say they care about the mental and emotional well-being of the students but the system they are part is f is almost abusive.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No recruited athletes - sports as just another EC. No legacy. Standardized test required as part of admissions decisions. One application deadline - no ED/EA/REA. Schools can only have one supplemental essay and one LOC that must be from a teacher.

Admissions staff say they care about the mental and emotional well-being of the students but the system they are part is f is almost abusive.

It is honestly shocking colleges can get as many applications as they do, making students run in circles with different deadlines, admissions types, hidden admissions practices with relatively vague advice that lead students to pick up rigorous classes, many different "impactful" extracurriculars (but not too many of course, because that is bad for some reason), etc. It's all a game that is genuinely detrimental to highschool students and needs to have some standardization.

You can choose to not have the game be "detrimental to HS students". My own kid did mostly STEM APs (skipped AP Eng/APUSH/APGovt/AP FL) and skipped the others to have some balance and do what they wanted to focus on (Their EC). They prepped for the SAT for 4 weeks, took it once and was done.

They got into all their Targets and safeties. ED1---Deferred then rejected RD. WL at 2nd choice. NEU--Global Scholars (1 year in London). So it played out exactly as expected. My kid had 3 great choices to choose from (2 targets and top safety). I'd say they ended up where they belonged. Top stats kid who didn't "win the lottery" at single digit schools, but only outright rejected at 1 school (T10).
We chose to let our kid skip the non-STEM APs, because it's not healthy to sleep only 2-3 hours each night (and those would have taken a ton of time, they are time consuming courses---for the STEM courses it wasn't much more work than a normal Calc/Science course and my kid got A/5s. ). We let them drop Spanish when it didn't work in their schedule and the alternate was a crappy teacher (they'd had previously---really really bad).
It's your choice. My kid enjoyed HS and got into a great T35 ranked school. They are happy with the choice, as they might not have gotten into a T10 with even the extra courses

Your kid is not fully educated. Nobody should be skipping APs in core subjects that young. History, English, world religions, ethics etc. are part of what makes a fully well-rounded individual. This is why elite schools pick kids that have As in all AP subjects vs one-dimensional kids.

Yes. The T10s expect to see a well-rounded list of APs in every subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one's educational experience is enhanced by a class of drones. That being said, for highly selective schools I'd want to see the stress on class rigor and being challenged, GPA, SAT/ACT test scores, interesting ECs that really demonstrate some passion and talent, teacher recommendations, and can they write a compelling essay.

I'd get rid of legacy, significant wealth, and nearly all admissions advantages for athletes. If Duke wants a competitive basketball team, fine. I understand that's a special thing. Same with Notre Dame football. But crew and tennis and lacrosse and soccer and Columbia football are pretty ridiculous. The SLACs are usually appalling with this. Nearly half of Williams and Amherst are "athletes."

I'd also put way less emphasis on race even in the post SC era. Context always matters, but have seen way too many mediocre private school students getting spots solely because they check a box. It's never the brilliant kid from SE or the immigrant in Gaithersburg with the 1300 that gets into a T20. I would, however, really like to find the first generation and low income smart kids. That's a special group of students.

I'd also limit the international admits for undergrad. Grad school is a different story. But for undergrad, no student has ever said all that's missing from my college experience is more wealthy students from mainland China and the Persian Gulf.

Basically, less class. More talent.

Those international students at undergrad are typically Full Pay (OOS prices for state schools). Those students help keep your in-state costs down.

And at private schools, why shouldn't the schools get to choose who to select? they are private schools and have no obligation to select only USA students or VA or MD residence.

The courts have already ruled that “private” schools can’t choose to select whoever they want. The government could easily ban or restrict foreign students if it wanted to, and there’s no principled reason they should not. But we all know that schools would scream about this because foreign students are a huge revenue source for them, and they don’t care how this affects American kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one's educational experience is enhanced by a class of drones. That being said, for highly selective schools I'd want to see the stress on class rigor and being challenged, GPA, SAT/ACT test scores, interesting ECs that really demonstrate some passion and talent, teacher recommendations, and can they write a compelling essay.

I'd get rid of legacy, significant wealth, and nearly all admissions advantages for athletes. If Duke wants a competitive basketball team, fine. I understand that's a special thing. Same with Notre Dame football. But crew and tennis and lacrosse and soccer and Columbia football are pretty ridiculous. The SLACs are usually appalling with this. Nearly half of Williams and Amherst are "athletes."

I'd also put way less emphasis on race even in the post SC era. Context always matters, but have seen way too many mediocre private school students getting spots solely because they check a box. It's never the brilliant kid from SE or the immigrant in Gaithersburg with the 1300 that gets into a T20. I would, however, really like to find the first generation and low income smart kids. That's a special group of students.

I'd also limit the international admits for undergrad. Grad school is a different story. But for undergrad, no student has ever said all that's missing from my college experience is more wealthy students from mainland China and the Persian Gulf.

Basically, less class. More talent.

No, they are STUDENT ATHLETES. They are generally kids whose academic chops are top tier AND they are competitive on a field or court.

Yeah, it’s actually pretty humbling to see what some of these kids have accomplished. These aren’t the old jock stereotypes at all. We have a family friend that got into HYP this year - 4.0 GPA, perfect SAT *and* one of the top in our state (a large one) for their sport (that isn’t a country club sport). A lot of people are in denial that there is a large group of applicants that are both elite academically and then an elite athlete on top of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one's educational experience is enhanced by a class of drones. That being said, for highly selective schools I'd want to see the stress on class rigor and being challenged, GPA, SAT/ACT test scores, interesting ECs that really demonstrate some passion and talent, teacher recommendations, and can they write a compelling essay.

I'd get rid of legacy, significant wealth, and nearly all admissions advantages for athletes. If Duke wants a competitive basketball team, fine. I understand that's a special thing. Same with Notre Dame football. But crew and tennis and lacrosse and soccer and Columbia football are pretty ridiculous. The SLACs are usually appalling with this. Nearly half of Williams and Amherst are "athletes."

I'd also put way less emphasis on race even in the post SC era. Context always matters, but have seen way too many mediocre private school students getting spots solely because they check a box. It's never the brilliant kid from SE or the immigrant in Gaithersburg with the 1300 that gets into a T20. I would, however, really like to find the first generation and low income smart kids. That's a special group of students.

I'd also limit the international admits for undergrad. Grad school is a different story. But for undergrad, no student has ever said all that's missing from my college experience is more wealthy students from mainland China and the Persian Gulf.

Basically, less class. More talent.

Those international students at undergrad are typically Full Pay (OOS prices for state schools). Those students help keep your in-state costs down.

And at private schools, why shouldn't the schools get to choose who to select? they are private schools and have no obligation to select only USA students or VA or MD residence.

Plenty of high stats, full pay Americans. Our private school is filled with them.

[Anonymous]

Sealed bid auctions for seats to the college. Forget this sports or charities or donated buildings nonsense. Just let people bid for seats.

[Anonymous]

The schools should enter everyone who meets base qualifications in a lottery. This could account for 75% of all accepted students. The other 25% would be the university’s discretion.

So meet the base requirements and you are entered in to the lottery.
Harvard 4.0 unweighted GPA, 1530 SAT, etc
UVA GPA: 4.32, SAT 1445, etc.

Don’t meet the base requirements hard rejection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some people care a lot about the SAT, while others think the extracurriculars are what count. What do you think?

It's not either or. With elite colleges, the academic profile is the the baseline and everyone meets and exceeds that threshold. ECs are differentiators. With lower level schools, ECs don't matter. They just pretend it does.

This. Students at the elite schools have the academic chops AND the ECs. Thus idea that a 1590 somehow ranks someone's IQ above a 1540 is nonsense. I taught SAT prep, and they are coachable tests, not some IQ determinant. This obsession is ridiculous and just offbase. It's not an either/or. It's yes, and...

Yes, SAT/ACT are "teachable"/coachable. My kid went from 1320 to 1520 with 4 hours of "test prep", targeted to their issues. Once they learned the tricks, every practice test was around 1520. Had they wanted to do 15-20 hours of prep, they likely could have gotten to 1580+. But we smartly chose not to waste their life doing test prep

And other kids prep for months with no gains. Most studies show test prep shows modest gains. Kids generally improve on the second test, and it’s always possible to have a bad day; it’s hard for an individual to separate that from test prep. End of the day, if the kid doesn’t have the capacity, no amount of prep will help.

I agree. I have another kid who did more test prep and went nowhere. They have adhd/anxiety and lack of exec functioning. But they are thru college (t80) and gainfully employed for 3 years and doing well. At a company where only 10-15-% make the initial cut of “ intensive full day of tests”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one's educational experience is enhanced by a class of drones. That being said, for highly selective schools I'd want to see the stress on class rigor and being challenged, GPA, SAT/ACT test scores, interesting ECs that really demonstrate some passion and talent, teacher recommendations, and can they write a compelling essay.

I'd get rid of legacy, significant wealth, and nearly all admissions advantages for athletes. If Duke wants a competitive basketball team, fine. I understand that's a special thing. Same with Notre Dame football. But crew and tennis and lacrosse and soccer and Columbia football are pretty ridiculous. The SLACs are usually appalling with this. Nearly half of Williams and Amherst are "athletes."

I'd also put way less emphasis on race even in the post SC era. Context always matters, but have seen way too many mediocre private school students getting spots solely because they check a box. It's never the brilliant kid from SE or the immigrant in Gaithersburg with the 1300 that gets into a T20. I would, however, really like to find the first generation and low income smart kids. That's a special group of students.

I'd also limit the international admits for undergrad. Grad school is a different story. But for undergrad, no student has ever said all that's missing from my college experience is more wealthy students from mainland China and the Persian Gulf.

Basically, less class. More talent.

Those international students at undergrad are typically Full Pay (OOS prices for state schools). Those students help keep your in-state costs down.

And at private schools, why shouldn't the schools get to choose who to select? they are private schools and have no obligation to select only USA students or VA or MD residence.

Plenty of high stats, full pay Americans. Our private school is filled with them.

So is my kid’s school. But there are also 25% of international students. Up to the school who to select.