I guess I don’t get why infidelity is a big deal if sex before marriage isn’t

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if it’s the same, OP, but I grew up a conservative Catholic, and I struggle to see how birth control is not only fine, but expected in a responsible married woman, but abortion is terrible, and you would never coerce a woman into one. Telling a married woman she should use birth control is fine, but asking her if she is going to keep a pregnancy is evil.

I was always taught that they are both not good for men, women, and society in general for pretty similar reasons. It’s hard to wrap my mind around what seems like an obvious moral contradiction.

Who says it's acceptable to coerce a woman into having an abortion?

I don't understand the moral contradiction you are identifying, or who holds those conflicting views.

The conflict is that oral contraceptives are necessary, and it’s okay for your partner, boss, coworker, random message board poster, to insist that you take them to prevent pregnancy.

However, abortion is not really okay, and it’s not allowed for your partner, boss, coworker, or random message board poster to insist on it.

It’s seems to me that both of those things are okay or both aren’t. I think it’s one of those things where if you go far enough right you come round left again or vice versa.

It’s harder to see nuances when you always thought about things in black and white terms.

In what universe is it ok for your partner, BOSS???, COWORKER??? etc to "insist that you take" birth control?

Uhmm…the real world?

I think it’s pretty widely accepted that women wouldn’t have much of a place in the workforce if it wasn’t for reliable birth control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP. My husband and I lived apart for a year a few years into our marriage. It was job related and didn’t have anything to do with our relationship.
If I found out that he slept with another woman during that year, I wouldn’t be thrilled, but I wouldn’t see it as a huge betrayal.

On the other hand, if we were living together and raising kids together, and he just wasn’t showing up for parenting obligations, he was regularly lying to me about where he was, and he wasn’t treating me nicely, then it could easily be marriage ending.

Then just divorce. What was the point of being married if you didn’t mind if he slept around?

There are a lot of reasons to be married. We love each other. We are best friends. We have children together. We were going to be living together again once I closed my practice and got the house sold. Our finances are mingled. We like being part of a family together.

That’s not love

She literally said "we love eachother. we are best friends." at the start of her post.

You literally do not understand that just because one says it is love does not make it love.
If I tell you a dog is a cat, does that make it a cat?

I just think it's weird that the poster said "i love my husband, we are best friends" and your response is "that isnt love". Like, she literally just said she was in love. How do you know she isnt? I don't get what your comment was based on. All you have to go off of is a stranger online said "i love my husband" and your response is "no you dont". Lol.

I can’t help you if you don’t see what’s obvious.

I guess I don't think it's obvious to assume that when a stranger says "I love my husband" , what they actually mean is, "this isn't love".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if it’s the same, OP, but I grew up a conservative Catholic, and I struggle to see how birth control is not only fine, but expected in a responsible married woman, but abortion is terrible, and you would never coerce a woman into one. Telling a married woman she should use birth control is fine, but asking her if she is going to keep a pregnancy is evil.

I was always taught that they are both not good for men, women, and society in general for pretty similar reasons. It’s hard to wrap my mind around what seems like an obvious moral contradiction.

Who says it's acceptable to coerce a woman into having an abortion?

I don't understand the moral contradiction you are identifying, or who holds those conflicting views.

The conflict is that oral contraceptives are necessary, and it’s okay for your partner, boss, coworker, random message board poster, to insist that you take them to prevent pregnancy.

However, abortion is not really okay, and it’s not allowed for your partner, boss, coworker, or random message board poster to insist on it.

It’s seems to me that both of those things are okay or both aren’t. I think it’s one of those things where if you go far enough right you come round left again or vice versa.

It’s harder to see nuances when you always thought about things in black and white terms.

In what universe is it ok for your partner, BOSS???, COWORKER??? etc to "insist that you take" birth control?

Uhmm…the real world?

I think it’s pretty widely accepted that women wouldn’t have much of a place in the workforce if it wasn’t for reliable birth control.

I must be lucky then because I've never once had a boss or coworker tell me I should start taking birth control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP. My husband and I lived apart for a year a few years into our marriage. It was job related and didn’t have anything to do with our relationship.
If I found out that he slept with another woman during that year, I wouldn’t be thrilled, but I wouldn’t see it as a huge betrayal.

On the other hand, if we were living together and raising kids together, and he just wasn’t showing up for parenting obligations, he was regularly lying to me about where he was, and he wasn’t treating me nicely, then it could easily be marriage ending.

Then just divorce. What was the point of being married if you didn’t mind if he slept around?

There are a lot of reasons to be married. We love each other. We are best friends. We have children together. We were going to be living together again once I closed my practice and got the house sold. Our finances are mingled. We like being part of a family together.

That’s not love

She literally said "we love eachother. we are best friends." at the start of her post.

You literally do not understand that just because one says it is love does not make it love.
If I tell you a dog is a cat, does that make it a cat?

I just think it's weird that the poster said "i love my husband, we are best friends" and your response is "that isnt love". Like, she literally just said she was in love. How do you know she isnt? I don't get what your comment was based on. All you have to go off of is a stranger online said "i love my husband" and your response is "no you dont". Lol.

I can’t help you if you don’t see what’s obvious.

I guess I don't think it's obvious to assume that when a stranger says "I love my husband" , what they actually mean is, "this isn't love".

Because that wasn’t all she said, you complete idiotic idiot.

[Anonymous]

OP here- I’m not saying cheating is ok, I’m saying that the reaction to the physical act of having sex with another person seems particularly outsized when you consider how casually sex is now treated outside of marriage.

I’ve read posts on this forum of women being devastated for years and years after the discovery of their husband’s affair. To a certain extent I understand the devastation is because of the broken trust and everything that came with the infidelity, but I also think there’s more to it than that. I don’t think that same reaction would happen with an emotional affair.

And to a degree when you see how triggered people seem to be by the concept of an “open marriage.”

[Anonymous]

I am with you, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if it’s the same, OP, but I grew up a conservative Catholic, and I struggle to see how birth control is not only fine, but expected in a responsible married woman, but abortion is terrible, and you would never coerce a woman into one. Telling a married woman she should use birth control is fine, but asking her if she is going to keep a pregnancy is evil.

I was always taught that they are both not good for men, women, and society in general for pretty similar reasons. It’s hard to wrap my mind around what seems like an obvious moral contradiction.

Telling a woman "you should use birth control" is intrusive, unless youre her doctor and the woman has asked you "how can i prevent pregnancy?"
Asking a woman if she is going to keep a pregnancy is intrusive, unless youre her doctor and the woman has said "im unexpectedly pregnant, what are my next steps?"
Neither is "evil" and neither is "fine" to point blank ask someone. Theyre just both intrusive things to say that fall under the category of "none of your business". No one should be coercing a woman into using or not using birth control, or using or not using abortion services.

I agree with you 100%.

But if you post in another forum about how you think childcare should be subsidized or parental leaves should be longer, you will see that many, many people do not agree with you.

I don't think that those things are as related as you make them out to be. "you should use birth control IF YOU DONT WANT TO HAVE A BABY" is a rude argument (in the context of discussing parental leave) but it's different than saying "you should use birth control" without the qualifier.

I mean, the qualifier is implied. The only reason people say, “you should use birth control” is in the context of preventing pregnancy.

I guess what I find odd is that, in these same discussions, people NEVER say, “or you should have an abortion.”

Like I said, I grew up far to the right and came around left. It’s hard for me to see this middle ground where one is okay but the other is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of what goes on concurrent to infidelity is trash behavior- lying, gaslighting, projecting, meanness, potentially giving your partner an STD. But to me this seems so much worse than the actual act of a physical affair itself.

When I read about the trauma and the betrayal of an affair and how it is the breaking of a sacred vow, it makes me feel like we are time traveling to the 1700’s or a time when a person was assumed to be a virgin before marriage. We have such a casual attitude about sex but suddenly you get married and bam- we are back to the old tradition where sexuality is sacred. Either sex is a sacred special thing or it isn’t. I don’t know how it can be both.

I don’t mean to sound like Esther Perel or something but I guess I do. I grew up in a very, very conservative family and I grew up with these extremely rigid attitudes about sex and I guess I see infidelity as a mistake now- a really really bad one, but a mistake nonetheless.

You're framing this weirdly. The sex isn't the point, the vow of fidelity is the point. There's no premarital vow of fidelity that is broken when someone has sex before marriage (unless you were raised in one of those creepy "promise ring with daddy to keep your hymen until he says you can give it to the guy he chooses" communities). Where there is no expectation of fidelity, sex is a personal choice.

Once you've looked someone in the eyes and told them you'll be exclusive, the 'personal choice' you make to sleep with someone else is an indication of a lack of integrity on your part, not just a high sex drive. No one is obligated to get married, or even to participate in exclusive relationships. But if you do either, and then cheat on your partner, the problem is not the sex. It's that you're breaking your word. You're trying to frame infidelity is an extension of sex positivity, but what you're looking for is a free love scenario. Sleep with whomever you want, whenever you want. Just don't promise anyone fidelity at the same time.

+1

Posts like these give me hope for DCUM

But people break their word all that time. My partner promised me they'd go on vacation with me to this place I really want to go. I get all excited. Then they decided that don't want to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here- I’m not saying cheating is ok, I’m saying that the reaction to the physical act of having sex with another person seems particularly outsized when you consider how casually sex is now treated outside of marriage.

I’ve read posts on this forum of women being devastated for years and years after the discovery of their husband’s affair. To a certain extent I understand the devastation is because of the broken trust and everything that came with the infidelity, but I also think there’s more to it than that. I don’t think that same reaction would happen with an emotional affair.

And to a degree when you see how triggered people seem to be by the concept of an “open marriage.”

You’re wrong. Obviously, everyone doesn’t react the same way, but there are definitely people who are devastated by an emotional affair, and because their partner has been lying and hiding the relationship from them, they can’t be sure that the affair wasn’t also physical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of what goes on concurrent to infidelity is trash behavior- lying, gaslighting, projecting, meanness, potentially giving your partner an STD. But to me this seems so much worse than the actual act of a physical affair itself.

When I read about the trauma and the betrayal of an affair and how it is the breaking of a sacred vow, it makes me feel like we are time traveling to the 1700’s or a time when a person was assumed to be a virgin before marriage. We have such a casual attitude about sex but suddenly you get married and bam- we are back to the old tradition where sexuality is sacred. Either sex is a sacred special thing or it isn’t. I don’t know how it can be both.

I don’t mean to sound like Esther Perel or something but I guess I do. I grew up in a very, very conservative family and I grew up with these extremely rigid attitudes about sex and I guess I see infidelity as a mistake now- a really really bad one, but a mistake nonetheless.

You're framing this weirdly. The sex isn't the point, the vow of fidelity is the point. There's no premarital vow of fidelity that is broken when someone has sex before marriage (unless you were raised in one of those creepy "promise ring with daddy to keep your hymen until he says you can give it to the guy he chooses" communities). Where there is no expectation of fidelity, sex is a personal choice.

Once you've looked someone in the eyes and told them you'll be exclusive, the 'personal choice' you make to sleep with someone else is an indication of a lack of integrity on your part, not just a high sex drive. No one is obligated to get married, or even to participate in exclusive relationships. But if you do either, and then cheat on your partner, the problem is not the sex. It's that you're breaking your word. You're trying to frame infidelity is an extension of sex positivity, but what you're looking for is a free love scenario. Sleep with whomever you want, whenever you want. Just don't promise anyone fidelity at the same time.

+1

Posts like these give me hope for DCUM

But people break their word all that time. My partner promised me they'd go on vacation with me to this place I really want to go. I get all excited. Then they decided that don't want to go.

You’re equating vacation planning to making marriage vows? We can’t help you.

[Anonymous]

You can remain virgin, marry in early 20's to your sweetheart and build a life together and never cheat. Millions of people do that and have absolutely satisfied lives. They may not have varied experiences but they also don't have varied burdens and varied expectations monogamy can't meet.

Obviously if you've had 24 flavors, even if you do like chocolate, you are more likely to crave for other flavors and cheat on chocolate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if it’s the same, OP, but I grew up a conservative Catholic, and I struggle to see how birth control is not only fine, but expected in a responsible married woman, but abortion is terrible, and you would never coerce a woman into one. Telling a married woman she should use birth control is fine, but asking her if she is going to keep a pregnancy is evil.

I was always taught that they are both not good for men, women, and society in general for pretty similar reasons. It’s hard to wrap my mind around what seems like an obvious moral contradiction.

Who says it's acceptable to coerce a woman into having an abortion?

I don't understand the moral contradiction you are identifying, or who holds those conflicting views.

The conflict is that oral contraceptives are necessary, and it’s okay for your partner, boss, coworker, random message board poster, to insist that you take them to prevent pregnancy.

However, abortion is not really okay, and it’s not allowed for your partner, boss, coworker, or random message board poster to insist on it.

It’s seems to me that both of those things are okay or both aren’t. I think it’s one of those things where if you go far enough right you come round left again or vice versa.

It’s harder to see nuances when you always thought about things in black and white terms.

In what universe is it ok for your partner, BOSS???, COWORKER??? etc to "insist that you take" birth control?

Uhmm…the real world?

I think it’s pretty widely accepted that women wouldn’t have much of a place in the workforce if it wasn’t for reliable birth control.

I must be lucky then because I've never once had a boss or coworker tell me I should start taking birth control.

I’m open to this. Maybe we should start a different thread on the Jobs board.

You really never felt any pressure at work or school to wait to get pregnant or time your pregnancies or maternity leaves around work stuff?

I’m not saying people said anything overtly. But people also never overtly told me not to wear clear heels and fishnets. I just knew.

[Anonymous]

A marriage is between two people, if you add others then it's a group, neither a couple nor a marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the betrayal. Sex before marriage isn't harming and deceiving a spouse you've committed to. (I know some ultra religious folks would say it is, but a hypothetical future person is just not the same as one you've already, specifically chosen and married.)

DP. I can see that.

On the other hand are:

sexless marriages.

When one spouse (of any sex) has desire for regular intercourse, but the other spouse (of any sex) has zero desire, why would there be any issue at all about sexual activity outside the marriage?


In other words: if you don’t want sex with them, why can’t they do it with other people?

In the catholic church you can divorce for being in a sexless marriage so I don't understand your point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The sex isn't the point, the vow of fidelity is the point. There's no premarital vow of fidelity that is broken when someone has sex before marriage (unless you were raised in one of those creepy "promise ring with daddy to keep your hymen until he says you can give it to the guy he chooses" communities). Where there is no expectation of fidelity, sex is a personal choice.

Once you've looked someone in the eyes and told them you'll be exclusive, the 'personal choice' you make to sleep with someone else is an indication of a lack of integrity on your part, not just a high sex drive. No one is obligated to get married, or even to participate in exclusive relationships. .

You can yourself decide to be limit sex to a partner you love and marry. It doesn't require daddy or law. It can be your own choice. Why are you counting that as impossible?