What’s the problem with MCAP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCAP is especially valuable because it allows the state to compare scores across every county. I know many value MAP scores, but most counties in MD no longer give MAP assessments. Parents, understand the MAP is an adaptive test so no student is taking the same test. If you want to compare your child’s progress against the progress of their peers, use MCAP over MAP.

MCAP isn’t adaptive, but the students are not all getting the same questions. There are multiple versions randomly assigned. Also lol that I can compare my child’s progress using MCAP. How would I do that if I still do not have any scores from last year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCAP is especially valuable because it allows the state to compare scores across every county. I know many value MAP scores, but most counties in MD no longer give MAP assessments. Parents, understand the MAP is an adaptive test so no student is taking the same test. If you want to compare your child’s progress against the progress of their peers, use MCAP over MAP.

MCAP isn’t adaptive, but the students are not all getting the same questions. There are multiple versions randomly assigned. Also lol that I can compare my child’s progress using MCAP. How would I do that if I still do not have any scores from last year?

+1 As a parent, it's impossible to judge your student's performance based on MCAP. We don't have scores from last year, and even if we did, the score reports are uninformative. If you also toss in poor curriculum alignment, I do not understand how the scores have real meaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCAP English proficient scores across counties:
Calvert: 64.4%
Carroll: 62.8%
Howard 62.7%
Frederick: 60.2%
Harford: 58.6%
Montgomery 57.6%
Anne Arundel 51.1%
Baltimore County: 43.9%
PG 35.5%
Baltimore City: 24.1%

Hmmm. Look how nicely these line up with income levels. It's almost like we could predict these scores. Hmmmm.

https://dls.maryland.gov/data/dashboard-demographics-income-levels

Now, take a deeper look at this breakdown by demographic group to get a clearer idea of what this means. MCPS is 35% Hispanic. Many of its students are English Language learners. When you compare apples to apples it will paint a more accurate picture of what is going on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.

Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies

The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.

The reading passage and subsequent questions anre about comprehension of the passage correct? It’s not requiring you to have comprehensive knowledge of every event in history. Now you may need to be able to use critical thinking skills and draw some connections like the devastating effects of war exist regardless of location, parties, or year. But again that would be testing critical thinking and comprehension.

Let me give an example. Years ago when we were still using PARCC, I had my 3rd graders read a passage used on a previous test that was released to the public. It was an informative passage about sea turtles. I had my students read it (a challenge since it was on a third grade reading level and most were reading below that). Then they answered the comprehension questions. Later, we talked about the vocab they didn't understand (words like coral reef, current, etc). One of my students said she didn't understand the title (Sea Turtles) after we read the text. She didn't understand why the author would tell the reader to "see turtles." I explained the word "see" didn't mean the same thing as the word "sea." None of my students knew that they meant different things. The entire point of the text was over their heads beginning with the title. Needless to say, they got most of the comprehension questions incorrect.


Reading comprehension is deely dependent on background knowledge of the topic and vocabulary. My students had not learned anything about marine animals and habitats so they didn't understand the vocab or even the meaning of the title. So while we teach to the standards, it doesn't mean squat when students encounter unfamiliar topics with unfamiliar vocabulary.

That is a great example and I can say that makes me understand a little more. I would say, that Sea and coral reef seem life science knowledge that a 3rd grader should have already. Habitats are covered in like 1st or 2nd grade.

Maybe but when students are reading below grade level, science and social studies are the first subjects to be shoved to the side to remediate. Add in students who aren't proficient in English and you've got a students who won't do well on any standardized test.

I don’t disagree, but the problem in this context is not MCAP. In this example the MCAP would be showing correctly that the students are not at grade level. Was that likely known by the teacher before hand, yes. Which is why I’m of the opinion if at the end of 2nd you are not prepared for third grade you should not be moved up. Further I would argue shoving science and social studies to the side is not helpful because they use and model the very reading and math skills that are being remediated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.

Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies

The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.

The reading passage and subsequent questions anre about comprehension of the passage correct? It’s not requiring you to have comprehensive knowledge of every event in history. Now you may need to be able to use critical thinking skills and draw some connections like the devastating effects of war exist regardless of location, parties, or year. But again that would be testing critical thinking and comprehension.

Let me give an example. Years ago when we were still using PARCC, I had my 3rd graders read a passage used on a previous test that was released to the public. It was an informative passage about sea turtles. I had my students read it (a challenge since it was on a third grade reading level and most were reading below that). Then they answered the comprehension questions. Later, we talked about the vocab they didn't understand (words like coral reef, current, etc). One of my students said she didn't understand the title (Sea Turtles) after we read the text. She didn't understand why the author would tell the reader to "see turtles." I explained the word "see" didn't mean the same thing as the word "sea." None of my students knew that they meant different things. The entire point of the text was over their heads beginning with the title. Needless to say, they got most of the comprehension questions incorrect.


Reading comprehension is deely dependent on background knowledge of the topic and vocabulary. My students had not learned anything about marine animals and habitats so they didn't understand the vocab or even the meaning of the title. So while we teach to the standards, it doesn't mean squat when students encounter unfamiliar topics with unfamiliar vocabulary.

That is a great example and I can say that makes me understand a little more. I would say, that Sea and coral reef seem life science knowledge that a 3rd grader should have already. Habitats are covered in like 1st or 2nd grade.

It's not a science issue. it's a literacy issue.

Umm, we know that. All subjects have a literacy component, as in they have vocabulary that is unique to them. In this example “Sea” is a science word that an on grade level student would have learned on their own or when doing a science lesson that covered the Ocean habitat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.

Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies

The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.

The reading passage and subsequent questions anre about comprehension of the passage correct? It’s not requiring you to have comprehensive knowledge of every event in history. Now you may need to be able to use critical thinking skills and draw some connections like the devastating effects of war exist regardless of location, parties, or year. But again that would be testing critical thinking and comprehension.

Let me give an example. Years ago when we were still using PARCC, I had my 3rd graders read a passage used on a previous test that was released to the public. It was an informative passage about sea turtles. I had my students read it (a challenge since it was on a third grade reading level and most were reading below that). Then they answered the comprehension questions. Later, we talked about the vocab they didn't understand (words like coral reef, current, etc). One of my students said she didn't understand the title (Sea Turtles) after we read the text. She didn't understand why the author would tell the reader to "see turtles." I explained the word "see" didn't mean the same thing as the word "sea." None of my students knew that they meant different things. The entire point of the text was over their heads beginning with the title. Needless to say, they got most of the comprehension questions incorrect.


Reading comprehension is deely dependent on background knowledge of the topic and vocabulary. My students had not learned anything about marine animals and habitats so they didn't understand the vocab or even the meaning of the title. So while we teach to the standards, it doesn't mean squat when students encounter unfamiliar topics with unfamiliar vocabulary.

That is a great example and I can say that makes me understand a little more. I would say, that Sea and coral reef seem life science knowledge that a 3rd grader should have already. Habitats are covered in like 1st or 2nd grade.

Maybe but when students are reading below grade level, science and social studies are the first subjects to be shoved to the side to remediate. Add in students who aren't proficient in English and you've got a students who won't do well on any standardized test.

I don’t disagree, but the problem in this context is not MCAP. In this example the MCAP would be showing correctly that the students are not at grade level. Was that likely known by the teacher before hand, yes. Which is why I’m of the opinion if at the end of 2nd you are not prepared for third grade you should not be moved up. Further I would argue shoving science and social studies to the side is not helpful because they use and model the very reading and math skills that are being remediated.[/quote

My concern is when a kid scores in the top 4% nationally on a credible test like MAP but is below expectations on a new and unproven test like MCAP. Until MCAP yields meaningful results it's mostly worthless.

[Anonymous]

^ My concern is when a kid scores in the top 4% nationally on a credible test like MAP but is below expectations on a new and unproven test like MCAP. Until MCAP yields meaningful results, it wastes everyone's time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ My concern is when a kid scores in the top 4% nationally on a credible test like MAP but is below expectations on a new and unproven test like MCAP. Until MCAP yields meaningful results, it wastes everyone's time.

+1

[Anonymous]

There is no way for MCPS or the state to stop using MCAP or a similar test at the end of the year. NCLB requires it. Maybe Millennial parents don’t remember the controversy over its passage, but the core of the law was annual state testing beginning in 3rd grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no way for MCPS or the state to stop using MCAP or a similar test at the end of the year. NCLB requires it. Maybe Millennial parents don’t remember the controversy over its passage, but the core of the law was annual state testing beginning in 3rd grade.

But they clearly didn’t mandate a specific test. I’m the PP who posted earlier about the CAT and ITBS tests. If we went back to them, we’d have tests that provided reliable data that would be more informative. Not only would they be more helpful to parents, but they would allow comparison between the states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no way for MCPS or the state to stop using MCAP or a similar test at the end of the year. NCLB requires it. Maybe Millennial parents don’t remember the controversy over its passage, but the core of the law was annual state testing beginning in 3rd grade.

But they clearly didn’t mandate a specific test. I’m the PP who posted earlier about the CAT and ITBS tests. If we went back to them, we’d have tests that provided reliable data that would be more informative. Not only would they be more helpful to parents, but they would allow comparison between the states.

I think a national test would be ideal, but short of that, PARCC was supposed to do something like that. But all the states pulled out.

[Anonymous]

NCLB was replaced by Obama’s ESSA Act which was supposed to reduce standardized testing. I feel we almost have more now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.

Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies

The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.

The reading passage and subsequent questions anre about comprehension of the passage correct? It’s not requiring you to have comprehensive knowledge of every event in history. Now you may need to be able to use critical thinking skills and draw some connections like the devastating effects of war exist regardless of location, parties, or year. But again that would be testing critical thinking and comprehension.

Let me give an example. Years ago when we were still using PARCC, I had my 3rd graders read a passage used on a previous test that was released to the public. It was an informative passage about sea turtles. I had my students read it (a challenge since it was on a third grade reading level and most were reading below that). Then they answered the comprehension questions. Later, we talked about the vocab they didn't understand (words like coral reef, current, etc). One of my students said she didn't understand the title (Sea Turtles) after we read the text. She didn't understand why the author would tell the reader to "see turtles." I explained the word "see" didn't mean the same thing as the word "sea." None of my students knew that they meant different things. The entire point of the text was over their heads beginning with the title. Needless to say, they got most of the comprehension questions incorrect.


Reading comprehension is deely dependent on background knowledge of the topic and vocabulary. My students had not learned anything about marine animals and habitats so they didn't understand the vocab or even the meaning of the title. So while we teach to the standards, it doesn't mean squat when students encounter unfamiliar topics with unfamiliar vocabulary.

That is a great example and I can say that makes me understand a little more. I would say, that Sea and coral reef seem life science knowledge that a 3rd grader should have already. Habitats are covered in like 1st or 2nd grade.

Maybe but when students are reading below grade level, science and social studies are the first subjects to be shoved to the side to remediate. Add in students who aren't proficient in English and you've got a students who won't do well on any standardized test.

I don’t disagree, but the problem in this context is not MCAP. In this example the MCAP would be showing correctly that the students are not at grade level. Was that likely known by the teacher before hand, yes. Which is why I’m of the opinion if at the end of 2nd you are not prepared for third grade you should not be moved up. Further I would argue shoving science and social studies to the side is not helpful because they use and model the very reading and math skills that are being remediated.

I agree but it's nearly impossible for students to be retained these days. I have students who fail everything, turn in no work, and miss tons of school and they still won't be retained.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.

Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies

The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.

The reading passage and subsequent questions anre about comprehension of the passage correct? It’s not requiring you to have comprehensive knowledge of every event in history. Now you may need to be able to use critical thinking skills and draw some connections like the devastating effects of war exist regardless of location, parties, or year. But again that would be testing critical thinking and comprehension.

Let me give an example. Years ago when we were still using PARCC, I had my 3rd graders read a passage used on a previous test that was released to the public. It was an informative passage about sea turtles. I had my students read it (a challenge since it was on a third grade reading level and most were reading below that). Then they answered the comprehension questions. Later, we talked about the vocab they didn't understand (words like coral reef, current, etc). One of my students said she didn't understand the title (Sea Turtles) after we read the text. She didn't understand why the author would tell the reader to "see turtles." I explained the word "see" didn't mean the same thing as the word "sea." None of my students knew that they meant different things. The entire point of the text was over their heads beginning with the title. Needless to say, they got most of the comprehension questions incorrect.


Reading comprehension is deely dependent on background knowledge of the topic and vocabulary. My students had not learned anything about marine animals and habitats so they didn't understand the vocab or even the meaning of the title. So while we teach to the standards, it doesn't mean squat when students encounter unfamiliar topics with unfamiliar vocabulary.

That is a great example and I can say that makes me understand a little more. I would say, that Sea and coral reef seem life science knowledge that a 3rd grader should have already. Habitats are covered in like 1st or 2nd grade.

It's not a science issue. it's a literacy issue.

Umm, we know that. All subjects have a literacy component, as in they have vocabulary that is unique to them. In this example “Sea” is a science word that an on grade level student would have learned on their own or when doing a science lesson that covered the Ocean habitat.

I highly doubt most teachers would even think to define the word "sea." Most would assume students knew the word already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.

Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies

The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.

The reading passage and subsequent questions anre about comprehension of the passage correct? It’s not requiring you to have comprehensive knowledge of every event in history. Now you may need to be able to use critical thinking skills and draw some connections like the devastating effects of war exist regardless of location, parties, or year. But again that would be testing critical thinking and comprehension.

Let me give an example. Years ago when we were still using PARCC, I had my 3rd graders read a passage used on a previous test that was released to the public. It was an informative passage about sea turtles. I had my students read it (a challenge since it was on a third grade reading level and most were reading below that). Then they answered the comprehension questions. Later, we talked about the vocab they didn't understand (words like coral reef, current, etc). One of my students said she didn't understand the title (Sea Turtles) after we read the text. She didn't understand why the author would tell the reader to "see turtles." I explained the word "see" didn't mean the same thing as the word "sea." None of my students knew that they meant different things. The entire point of the text was over their heads beginning with the title. Needless to say, they got most of the comprehension questions incorrect.


Reading comprehension is deely dependent on background knowledge of the topic and vocabulary. My students had not learned anything about marine animals and habitats so they didn't understand the vocab or even the meaning of the title. So while we teach to the standards, it doesn't mean squat when students encounter unfamiliar topics with unfamiliar vocabulary.

That is a great example and I can say that makes me understand a little more. I would say, that Sea and coral reef seem life science knowledge that a 3rd grader should have already. Habitats are covered in like 1st or 2nd grade.

It's not a science issue. it's a literacy issue.

Umm, we know that. All subjects have a literacy component, as in they have vocabulary that is unique to them. In this example “Sea” is a science word that an on grade level student would have learned on their own or when doing a science lesson that covered the Ocean habitat.

I highly doubt most teachers would even think to define the word "sea." Most would assume students knew the word already.

I think that teachers likely go over homophones like sea and see.