Princeton has 8 suicides in 3 years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, it seems some students are just not ready for college and especially not ready for a competitive pressure cooker college for whatever reasons. Perhaps they push through high school to get the top grades, EC’s etc and then are just burnt out. Perhaps they think an elite college is the ultimate prize at the end of high school and once they are in they feel their work is done only to find out that they have to continue to grind and the pressure is even more intense. I don’t know. Just wondering. It’s really sad.

It's probably this but even more so a feeling of "so this is it?" You know, that empty feeling that can rear it's head when you achieve your goal and realize that you're not any happier than before. Happiness, contentment, peace have to come from within and not from your external circumstances or anything you've accomplished. I struggle with this. Sometimes the emptiness is larger, the larger the accomplishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is sad, news of suicides mostly came from U of Penn and Cornell, Princeton was supposed to be a better place for mental health support.

"Mental health support" is a myth.

Please stop pulling out names and perpetuating stereotypes. And take a minute to look at recent data. Mental health is a serious issue and its pervasive in many many colleges. Don't minimize the overall issue by spotlighting a couple of names.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet every time someone posts in DCUM about how grim and awful the environment is on these elite campuses these days, all their rabid fans scream about how wrong that assessment is and that everything is perfect.

Suicides happen on most college campuses, but yes, IMO, they happen more at the pressure cooker schools, and in reality most T25 schools are exactly that. Those kids have often grown up thru HS expecting to be the best at everything and eventually the pressure to do that can be too much unfortunately

I do appreciate you qualifying your comment as “in your opinion”. Because until you can site sources that say suicides happen more at the top 25 schools, then this statement is insensitive to the mental health challenges of affected students.

NP: you have to search the academic literature for studies. Example:

Elite Academic Culture
Research suggests that the stigmatization of mental illness may be greater in elite academic settings. Although elite student bodies are overwhelmingly composed of students from higher socioeconomic positions, elite culture promotes the idea of individual agency and creates a cultural norm of perfection, which may fuel stigma. Mueller and Abrutyn (2016) found that adolescents in a highly connected community regulated by a local culture that emphasized academic achievement and perfectionism are at increased risk of suicide. They explain, “The pervasive emphasis on perfection has a cost; mental health problems are seen as contradictory to the cultural directive to be perfect and thus are highly stigmatized” (Mueller and Abrutyn 2016). Relatedly, Khan’s (2011) qualitative investigation of elite culture at a secondary school illustrates how elite students learn to believe that their elevated social status is solely the result of hard work and intelligence, without acknowledging social forces like social class. Their belief in individual agency leads students to accept full responsibility for both their successes and failures—consequently, mental illness may be framed as an individual failure. Additionally, elite culture is characterized by a norm of effortless perfection. Khan (2011) found that elite secondary school students who were perceived as “trying too hard,” defying the social norm of effortless perfection, were rejected by their peers. In sum, mental illness defies the social values and norms of elite academic culture.
Relatedly, numerous non-academic works document the relationship between the culture of perfection and mental illness stigma. Deresiewicz (2008) explains this elite norm of perfectionism as the “pressure to maintain the kind of appearance—and affect—that go with achievement” (p. 29). Although many students at elite schools suffer with mental illness, the social context requires individuals to hide symptoms to remain socially acceptable. At Stanford University, Khan’s effortless perfection norm is called the “Duck Syndrome” (Scelfo 2015). Ducks appear to glide effortlessly across the water, but beneath the surface, their feet paddle frantically. Scelfo suggests that the culture of effortless perfection at elite schools—especially those in the Ivy League—causes students to conceal mental illness, withdraw socially, and consequently increase their risk of suicide. source: https://doi.org/10.1177/0731121420921878

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a kid at Princeton who complained frequently about grade deflation to a friend (my kid). They survived TJ but Princeton broke them to tears! Parents should think twice before sending their kids there.

They were broken to tears because the average GPA is 3.56? Didn’t know TJ had such grade inflation in comparison.

[Anonymous]

yaledailynews
UNIVERSITY | Student mental health is the top challenge Yale’s 24th president will face, according to a report by the Presidential Search Committee’s Student Advisory Council, or SAC.⁠
⁠
The report, which the News obtained in late January, summarized data from over 1,800 student respondents in a survey focused on student concerns for the next president of Yale. ⁠
⁠
The SAC was created after widespread student demand for student representation on the Presidential Search Committee and included 15 students from across the University. Forty percent of respondents to the SAC’s survey listed student mental health as the top challenge the University will face, and 38 percent listed mental health policy as an issue where the University performed worse than peer institutions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet every time someone posts in DCUM about how grim and awful the environment is on these elite campuses these days, all their rabid fans scream about how wrong that assessment is and that everything is perfect.

Suicides happen on most college campuses, but yes, IMO, they happen more at the pressure cooker schools, and in reality most T25 schools are exactly that. Those kids have often grown up thru HS expecting to be the best at everything and eventually the pressure to do that can be too much unfortunately

I do appreciate you qualifying your comment as “in your opinion”. Because until you can site sources that say suicides happen more at the top 25 schools, then this statement is insensitive to the mental health challenges of affected students.

NP: you have to search the academic literature for studies. Example:

Elite Academic Culture
Research suggests that the stigmatization of mental illness may be greater in elite academic settings. Although elite student bodies are overwhelmingly composed of students from higher socioeconomic positions, elite culture promotes the idea of individual agency and creates a cultural norm of perfection, which may fuel stigma. Mueller and Abrutyn (2016) found that adolescents in a highly connected community regulated by a local culture that emphasized academic achievement and perfectionism are at increased risk of suicide. They explain, “The pervasive emphasis on perfection has a cost; mental health problems are seen as contradictory to the cultural directive to be perfect and thus are highly stigmatized” (Mueller and Abrutyn 2016). Relatedly, Khan’s (2011) qualitative investigation of elite culture at a secondary school illustrates how elite students learn to believe that their elevated social status is solely the result of hard work and intelligence, without acknowledging social forces like social class. Their belief in individual agency leads students to accept full responsibility for both their successes and failures—consequently, mental illness may be framed as an individual failure. Additionally, elite culture is characterized by a norm of effortless perfection. Khan (2011) found that elite secondary school students who were perceived as “trying too hard,” defying the social norm of effortless perfection, were rejected by their peers. In sum, mental illness defies the social values and norms of elite academic culture.
Relatedly, numerous non-academic works document the relationship between the culture of perfection and mental illness stigma. Deresiewicz (2008) explains this elite norm of perfectionism as the “pressure to maintain the kind of appearance—and affect—that go with achievement” (p. 29). Although many students at elite schools suffer with mental illness, the social context requires individuals to hide symptoms to remain socially acceptable. At Stanford University, Khan’s effortless perfection norm is called the “Duck Syndrome” (Scelfo 2015). Ducks appear to glide effortlessly across the water, but beneath the surface, their feet paddle frantically. Scelfo suggests that the culture of effortless perfection at elite schools—especially those in the Ivy League—causes students to conceal mental illness, withdraw socially, and consequently increase their risk of suicide. source: https://doi.org/10.1177/0731121420921878

I forgot to add that it is difficult to compare rates of suicide by university/college because many (almost 50%) do not track suicides, especially public universities. The data is not available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of young adults are really struggling with mental health. I think more than we were that age. Maybe partly due COVID, probably more due to social media. It's really so sad.

+100

I had a niece and nephew (no mental health history), 3 work colleagues’ kids, neighbor’s kid, mom at my gym: all have mental health issues that required a break from school in the past 3 years.

It’s approaching epidemic levels. There is missing VT kid right now who sounds like a mental break. Very sad.

35% increase in mental issues. This age group has more than ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, it seems some students are just not ready for college and especially not ready for a competitive pressure cooker college for whatever reasons. Perhaps they push through high school to get the top grades, EC’s etc and then are just burnt out. Perhaps they think an elite college is the ultimate prize at the end of high school and once they are in they feel their work is done only to find out that they have to continue to grind and the pressure is even more intense. I don’t know. Just wondering. It’s really sad.

I think it’s more that it is very difficult to live in a highly pressured situation surrounded by so many type A students — there are very few counterbalancing influences telling you to chill or that it doesn’t matter, and the living environment is chaotic and unhealthy too. It doesn’t matter how “ready” a student is, it’s just a very stressful situation for a kid who is probably already the amped-up, conscientious type.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet every time someone posts in DCUM about how grim and awful the environment is on these elite campuses these days, all their rabid fans scream about how wrong that assessment is and that everything is perfect.

Suicides happen on most college campuses, but yes, IMO, they happen more at the pressure cooker schools, and in reality most T25 schools are exactly that. Those kids have often grown up thru HS expecting to be the best at everything and eventually the pressure to do that can be too much unfortunately

I do appreciate you qualifying your comment as “in your opinion”. Because until you can site sources that say suicides happen more at the top 25 schools, then this statement is insensitive to the mental health challenges of affected students.

It does happen everywhere, not just Top schools, obviously. But there is "less pressure" at a school ranked 100 vs a T20 school typically. The kids at T100 likely did not spend their HS 4 years carefully crafting their life just so they could get into HYPSM.

Here is my personal awarements/antedotal evidence. I have one kid attended a T100, one at a T30-40 and I went to a T10. All 3 are in cold, dreary areas. The T100 and T10 are 60 miles apart. The T10 had 9+ suicides we knew about in a 5 year period recently--it's a known issues at the school. The T100 I've only heard about 1 suicide in last 10 years. Have not heard of any at the T30-40 school and cannot find anything with searching (I do hear about a few at the Medical school for that school but not undergrad) This T30-40 school is not known for being a pressure cooker at all, lots of "strivers" who wanted T25 but didn't get in (most were WL/offered sophomore transfer at T25 schools---most applied to and wanted to attend at least 2-3 T25 schools)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, it seems some students are just not ready for college and especially not ready for a competitive pressure cooker college for whatever reasons. Perhaps they push through high school to get the top grades, EC’s etc and then are just burnt out. Perhaps they think an elite college is the ultimate prize at the end of high school and once they are in they feel their work is done only to find out that they have to continue to grind and the pressure is even more intense. I don’t know. Just wondering. It’s really sad.

I think it’s more that it is very difficult to live in a highly pressured situation surrounded by so many type A students — there are very few counterbalancing influences telling you to chill or that it doesn’t matter, and the living environment is chaotic and unhealthy too. It doesn’t matter how “ready” a student is, it’s just a very stressful situation for a kid who is probably already the amped-up, conscientious type.

I recall a single student suicide during my four years at Princeton, and the school now has far more "creature comforts" and support systems for students than when I attended.

As far as I can tell, about 80-85% of this has to do with the profile/mental state of current students when they arrive on campus and perhaps 15-20% with the competitive environment once they are there.

[Anonymous]

So a couple of these are legacy kids and at least one faculty kid. These profiles might have a more difficult time than a regular admit. I know of legacies who are struggling with imposter syndrome. Maybe just get rid of legacy and faculty bumps or convince parents that this may not be a good idea?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, it seems some students are just not ready for college and especially not ready for a competitive pressure cooker college for whatever reasons. Perhaps they push through high school to get the top grades, EC’s etc and then are just burnt out. Perhaps they think an elite college is the ultimate prize at the end of high school and once they are in they feel their work is done only to find out that they have to continue to grind and the pressure is even more intense. I don’t know. Just wondering. It’s really sad.

I think it’s more that it is very difficult to live in a highly pressured situation surrounded by so many type A students — there are very few counterbalancing influences telling you to chill or that it doesn’t matter, and the living environment is chaotic and unhealthy too. It doesn’t matter how “ready” a student is, it’s just a very stressful situation for a kid who is probably already the amped-up, conscientious type.

PP here. I agree its more than that. Its also social issues. My DD struggled with social issues because of her roommates.
But it is also because the students are kids and clueless about many things. My DD tells me about how most students don’t get enough sleep and don’t eat much either. I know it’s anecdotal but I hear this about many many students she socializes with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This article talks about how WPI took a real hard look at itself, and made changes after a number of suicides.
Other schools could learn from them.




https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/22/magazine/worcester-polytechnic-institute-suicides.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Pk0.CYuQ.AAthuL6vq29U

This was a really moving story. You can listen to an audio version on The Daily podcast, which what I did, over the course of a walk. Before pressing play, I wasn’t sure I could bear it, but it was worth it. Definitely recommend.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000644922047

[Anonymous]

Suicide is sadly not uncommon in the 18-22 year old group and tends to cluster (e.g., one suicide triggers another). So I'm not sure that this is just not a factor of a cluster at an institution that can happen anywhere versus some particular triggering factor of the setting. The key thing I would look at is institutional mental health support following the suicide to prevent the cluster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of young adults are really struggling with mental health. I think more than we were that age. Maybe partly due COVID, probably more due to social media. It's really so sad.

+100

I had a niece and nephew (no mental health history), 3 work colleagues’ kids, neighbor’s kid, mom at my gym: all have mental health issues that required a break from school in the past 3 years.

It’s approaching epidemic levels. There is missing VT kid right now who sounds like a mental break. Very sad.

35% increase in mental issues. This age group has more than ever.

Yes. It's not the 'schools' or 'pressure' per se. Mental health is a huge issue in the teen-college age group. Record numbers. Social media/iphone usage, environmental toxins, weed today is different-causes psychosis, etc.

The population (whether they go to college or not) has seen a huge increase in mental health issues===what's happening on campuses is just a reflection of that.