Using Noetic Math Contest Results in TJ Application?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AMC8 in the 1980s was much easier, so students will get high scores if these are used as practice tests. The honor rolls from recent years are available on the MAA website if people want to get the count from northern Virginia. It is much higher than 50.

I did and it's lower.

Then you did it badly. I pulled in the csv file from 2022. There were 105 kids total from VA listed on the top 1% and top 5% honor rolls.

Generally, 10+ VA elementary school kids make it onto at least the top 5% honor roll. It's really not that special.

I know! It's like maybe 0.0001% of the MS population so not all that special. :/

There's a huge gulf between "pin the certificate on the wall and brag to other parents/coworkers" type of special and "tj should auto-admit these kids" kind of special. It's not the latter, no matter how much you want it to be. Over 100 VA kids make it on the AMC 8 honor rolls each year. This just shows that any kids who are reasonably strong in math who also either attend RSM or AoPS classes or have a strong middle school math competition program can make the honor roll for AMC 8.

Only 10-20 middle schoolers in VA qualify for AIME. Only 4 qualify for mathcounts nationals. Somewhere between 0-2 kids make USAJMO. You could make an argument that these kids deserve to have the red carpet rolled out by TJ. You can't plausibly make the same argument for all 100+ of the AMC 8 honor roll kids.

I agree that 6/7th grade AIME qualifiers should be auto-accepted. Mathcounts nationals team is set at 4, so you always get 4 every year.

AMC8 Honor roll is still very very good - I imagine that 90% of the 2500 TJ applicants took the AMC8 and less than 10% of those made honor roll. It's like making a 1550+ on the SAT - it shouldn't guarantee admissions into [insert college], but it should tip the scale in the applicant's favor.

What happens when you then add in all of the kids who performed well in Science Olympiad, robotics, science fair, or other STEM activities? You can't necessarily fit all of those kids into TJ, especially considering that many of them are clumped in a small number of middle schools with strong programs.

There's also no way that even close to 90% of the TJ applicants took the AMC 8. Most FCPS middle schools don't even offer it. Many don't have a math team.

For AMC 8, coaching matters a lot. Kids who take competition math classes or have strong coaching can learn a lot of the tricks and shortcuts for the problems. A well coached kid who squeaks into top 5% honor roll in 8th grade is strong at math, but they're not an elite talent. They'd be fine at TJ, but they wouldn't be a math superstar by any stretch. It is likely that none of the essays would provide an opportunity to talk about making AMC 8 Honor roll without forcing it. If the kid can work AMC 8 into an essay prompt, they'd be better off talking about how interested they are in math or how practicing for contests helped them develop grit or whatever than expecting AMC 8 Honor Roll in and of itself to wow the essay grader.

[Anonymous]

jumping into the numbers for the 2022 AMC 8 a little more:
There were 52 8th graders that year in FCPS on the Honor Rolls.

20 were from Longfellow
9 were from Rocky Run
5 were from Cooper
7 were from math enrichment programs.
only 11 were from the rest of Fairfax, combined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AMC8 in the 1980s was much easier, so students will get high scores if these are used as practice tests. The honor rolls from recent years are available on the MAA website if people want to get the count from northern Virginia. It is much higher than 50.

I did and it's lower.

Then you did it badly. I pulled in the csv file from 2022. There were 105 kids total from VA listed on the top 1% and top 5% honor rolls.

Generally, 10+ VA elementary school kids make it onto at least the top 5% honor roll. It's really not that special.

I know! It's like maybe 0.0001% of the MS population so not all that special. :/

There's a huge gulf between "pin the certificate on the wall and brag to other parents/coworkers" type of special and "tj should auto-admit these kids" kind of special. It's not the latter, no matter how much you want it to be. Over 100 VA kids make it on the AMC 8 honor rolls each year. This just shows that any kids who are reasonably strong in math who also either attend RSM or AoPS classes or have a strong middle school math competition program can make the honor roll for AMC 8.

Only 10-20 middle schoolers in VA qualify for AIME. Only 4 qualify for mathcounts nationals. Somewhere between 0-2 kids make USAJMO. You could make an argument that these kids deserve to have the red carpet rolled out by TJ. You can't plausibly make the same argument for all 100+ of the AMC 8 honor roll kids.

I agree that 6/7th grade AIME qualifiers should be auto-accepted. Mathcounts nationals team is set at 4, so you always get 4 every year.

AMC8 Honor roll is still very very good - I imagine that 90% of the 2500 TJ applicants took the AMC8 and less than 10% of those made honor roll. It's like making a 1550+ on the SAT - it shouldn't guarantee admissions into [insert college], but it should tip the scale in the applicant's favor.

What happens when you then add in all of the kids who performed well in Science Olympiad, robotics, science fair, or other STEM activities? You can't necessarily fit all of those kids into TJ, especially considering that many of them are clumped in a small number of middle schools with strong programs.

There's also no way that even close to 90% of the TJ applicants took the AMC 8. Most FCPS middle schools don't even offer it. Many don't have a math team.

For AMC 8, coaching matters a lot. Kids who take competition math classes or have strong coaching can learn a lot of the tricks and shortcuts for the problems. A well coached kid who squeaks into top 5% honor roll in 8th grade is strong at math, but they're not an elite talent. They'd be fine at TJ, but they wouldn't be a math superstar by any stretch. It is likely that none of the essays would provide an opportunity to talk about making AMC 8 Honor roll without forcing it. If the kid can work AMC 8 into an essay prompt, they'd be better off talking about how interested they are in math or how practicing for contests helped them develop grit or whatever than expecting AMC 8 Honor Roll in and of itself to wow the essay grader.

Thanks, that's good info for a ChatGPT prompt for an essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:jumping into the numbers for the 2022 AMC 8 a little more:
There were 52 8th graders that year in FCPS on the Honor Rolls.

20 were from Longfellow
9 were from Rocky Run
5 were from Cooper
7 were from math enrichment programs.
only 11 were from the rest of Fairfax, combined.

The numbers are more equitable now, because the honor rolls are now confidential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"National Honor Roll Medal: The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.

Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.

Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level.

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better.

Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones.. they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college.

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"National Honor Roll Medal: The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.

Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.

Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level.

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better.

Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones.. they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college.

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics.

Different poster. Just the way you are using "tactics" suggest that you have absolutely no clue to what is involved in these competitions.

You would be laughed out if you say this to anyone in the math community.

You are not learning "tricks" and "tactics" for these competitions. Anyone who is dependent on learning "tricks" and "tactics" would not progress much further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"National Honor Roll Medal: The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.

Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.

Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level.

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better.

Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones.. they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college.

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics.

Different poster. Just the way you are using "tactics" suggest that you have absolutely no clue to what is involved in these competitions.

You would be laughed out if you say this to anyone in the math community.

You are not learning "tricks" and "tactics" for these competitions. Anyone who is dependent on learning "tricks" and "tactics" would not progress much further.

DP. You're both wrong. There definitely are tricks and tactics that are important for lower level competitions. AMC 8 is pretty basic, has stringent time constraints, and is multiple choice. Introducing a kid to common ways to approach various problem types, some fast computational tricks, and some of the areas that aren't commonly covered in school math classes will help kids tremendously with tests like the AMC 8. A kid doesn't need to be a math genius to make the AMC 8 Honor roll. The kid just needs to be bright in math with some good coaching in problem solving. That doesn't quite hold true when you reach AMC 10/12, AIME, and higher. Many kids seem to plateau.

All of that being said, a kid who does make AMC 8 Honor roll is not a kid who simply knows some math parlor tricks. The kid is legitimately good at math. The side effect of training for math competitions and learning all of the "tricks" and "tactics" is that the kid ends up being really good at math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"National Honor Roll Medal: The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.

Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.

Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level.

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better.

Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones.. they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college.

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics.

Different poster. Just the way you are using "tactics" suggest that you have absolutely no clue to what is involved in these competitions.

You would be laughed out if you say this to anyone in the math community.

You are not learning "tricks" and "tactics" for these competitions. Anyone who is dependent on learning "tricks" and "tactics" would not progress much further.

DP. You're both wrong. There definitely are tricks and tactics that are important for lower level competitions. AMC 8 is pretty basic, has stringent time constraints, and is multiple choice. Introducing a kid to common ways to approach various problem types, some fast computational tricks, and some of the areas that aren't commonly covered in school math classes will help kids tremendously with tests like the AMC 8. A kid doesn't need to be a math genius to make the AMC 8 Honor roll. The kid just needs to be bright in math with some good coaching in problem solving. That doesn't quite hold true when you reach AMC 10/12, AIME, and higher. Many kids seem to plateau.

All of that being said, a kid who does make AMC 8 Honor roll is not a kid who simply knows some math parlor tricks. The kid is legitimately good at math. The side effect of training for math competitions and learning all of the "tricks" and "tactics" is that the kid ends up being really good at math.

I was talking about AIME and AJMO/AMO or even AMC 10/12 problems 20-25. Do not disagree with what you wrote.

[Anonymous]

The TJ problem is that most of the top math talent in NOVA is Chinese/Indian/Korean. It's not really about anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:jumping into the numbers for the 2022 AMC 8 a little more:
There were 52 8th graders that year in FCPS on the Honor Rolls.

20 were from Longfellow
9 were from Rocky Run
5 were from Cooper
7 were from math enrichment programs.
only 11 were from the rest of Fairfax, combined.

The numbers are more equitable now, because the honor rolls are now confidential.

I wonder if equity/optics is the reason they no longer publish the honor rolls. This year, everyone had to check a box indicating that they're okay with their scores being published. So, MAA's stated reason of protecting privacy is a clear lie. Did it just look bad for them to have a list of almost entirely Asian names?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The TJ problem is that most of the top math talent in NOVA is Chinese/Indian/Korean. It's not really about anything else.

That's not a problem, per se. Howard Scripps has no problem having a majority indian national spelling bee finals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:jumping into the numbers for the 2022 AMC 8 a little more:
There were 52 8th graders that year in FCPS on the Honor Rolls.

20 were from Longfellow
9 were from Rocky Run
5 were from Cooper
7 were from math enrichment programs.
only 11 were from the rest of Fairfax, combined.

The numbers are more equitable now, because the honor rolls are now confidential.

I wonder if equity/optics is the reason they no longer publish the honor rolls. This year, everyone had to check a box indicating that they're okay with their scores being published. So, MAA's stated reason of protecting privacy is a clear lie. Did it just look bad for them to have a list of almost entirely Asian names?

They "upgraded" the data system to edvistas, and like all tech vendor products, it's less useful than the custom system it replaced.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"National Honor Roll Medal: The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.

Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.

Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level.

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better.

Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones.. they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college.

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics.

Different poster. Just the way you are using "tactics" suggest that you have absolutely no clue to what is involved in these competitions.

You would be laughed out if you say this to anyone in the math community.

You are not learning "tricks" and "tactics" for these competitions. Anyone who is dependent on learning "tricks" and "tactics" would not progress much further.

The math community laughs at these silly contests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"National Honor Roll Medal: The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.

Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.

Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level.

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better.

Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones.. they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college.

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics.

Different poster. Just the way you are using "tactics" suggest that you have absolutely no clue to what is involved in these competitions.

You would be laughed out if you say this to anyone in the math community.

You are not learning "tricks" and "tactics" for these competitions. Anyone who is dependent on learning "tricks" and "tactics" would not progress much further.

The math community laughs at these silly contests.

The Math community, maa.org, creates and runs all of the AMC contests. If it laughs at them, then it's laughing at itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AMC8 in the 1980s was much easier, so students will get high scores if these are used as practice tests. The honor rolls from recent years are available on the MAA website if people want to get the count from northern Virginia. It is much higher than 50.

DP. MAA gives the csv files, so it's pretty easy to tabulate results. In the Jan 2022 AMC 8, 105 VA kids made at least the top 5% honor roll. Most of these kids are from NoVa. In the Nov 2021 AMC 10a, only 16 VA kids had AIME qualifying scores (6 7th graders and 10 8th graders). This would all suggest that making the AMC 8 honor roll is not that spectacular, especially if the kid is taking AoPS/RSM classes or is in an AAP center middle school with a strong math club. Qualifying for AIME in middle school is still pretty rare for NoVa kids.

There are 3 honor rolls (1 for 6th graders and under, 2 for 8th graders and under.

The high honor roll (top 1% of test takers) is almost the same as the AMC10 AIME qualifiers, based on kids I know, and also the stats showing about 750 middle schoolers on the AMC8 1% honor roll and the same number taking the AIME.

The AMC8 high honor roll is extremely hard, because of extreme time pressure (20 of 25 questions, in 40 minutes). (It has to be, because it has a content cap and is artificially limited to 1%, so everyone near the top studying more doesn't help; it's a rat race / treadmill race).

The AMC10-taking AIME qualifiers only need to solve half the test (~15 out of 25 questions, in 75minutes), so, though it is a bit harder and expects Algebra and Geometry class, there is minimal time pressure. And it admits a larger group (~7% of test takers).