Reply to Using Noetic Math Contest Results in TJ Application?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"National Honor Roll Medal:  The top 10% of all participants in the nation will receive 'National Honor Roll' medals. "

Not standout for TJ.
AMC 8/10 Honor Roll or Mathcounts Chapter/State would be more TJ level.

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This is ridiculous, are you saying 500 students at TJ are all AMC8/10 honor roll in middle school?[/quote]

They might not be on the honor roll because they didn’t take it but I would think that every kid at TJ should be on the honor roll if they took the exam. DS is in 6th grade and took a practice exam for the AMC 8. He scored 18 out of 25 on it. I have no idea how he will do on the exam when he takes it in a few weeks but I would not be surprised if he does well on it. He is normally in the 95th or 99th percentile of the kids participating in math competitions. The kids who want to go to TJ because they love STEM are likely to be the kids who do well on things like the AMC8. That is kind of who the school is meant to serve.
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Getting honor roll for AMC8 is very hard - there's fewer than 3000 in the entire country. There's no way all 500 kids in NOVA are "good" enough to get it. I believe there are about 20 NOVA kids each year getting on the AMC8 honor roll.[/quote]

I love my DS and I think he is pretty smart but he is a 6th grader whose score on his first practice test was 1 question away from the honor roll for the test that he took. While I get that is a practice test at home, it does not make me think that the AMC 8 is super challenging for kids who enjoy math and have been taking math competitions for a while. I would not think of enrolling him in the AMC 10 but I know that there are parents of kids his age who do just that. Some of those parents have posted here. Maybe if he does well enough on the AMC 8 this year we will try the AMC 10 next year.

Take a look at the break down of who is taking tests like the Noetic and the like, you will see certain states are well over represented in the honor roll. So yes, I can see that there would be a large number of kids in the NoVA area taking the AMC 8 in ES and earning honor roll.

I don’t think it should be a stretch for kids applying to TJ be able to score high enough to earn honor roll on the AMC 8, especially if they were to take it in 8th grade. [b]If your kid is not able to score on the honor roll on the AMC 8 as an 8th grader, then TJ might not be the best fit.[/b] [/quote]

It’s getting even more ridiculous.

Ok, we get it, your kid is a genius, although I’m guessing you’re not even in remotely in the vicinity of TJ.

Holding math competitions or AIME as the ultimate STEM achievement a student can attain is misguided. People can have many different interests and skills, besides doing hard problems on a time limit.[/quote]

DS is a 6th grader in FCPS. I have no clue if he will apply to TJ or not, I actually would be surprised if he did because it would be an hour commute. Either way, it will be his choice when he is in 8th grade.

And no, I don’t think it is ridiculous to suggest that kids applying to TJ, a top rated STEM program in the country, should be able to score in the top 5% of an 8th grade level math test. They are 8th graders, a good number who are in the top 1.5% of their class at their MS. They have been taking honors math and earning A’s. If that does not translate into a 19 out of 25 on a math test then there is an issue.

I am not suggesting that everyone take the AMC8, I understand that it is a choice to participate, but you are outraged at the suggestion that the top STEM students in FCPS would not be able to score competitively on an 8th grade math exam when they are in 8th grade. I am not talking about the AMC 10 or AIME or the like. I am discussing an 8th grade level math test, taken by 8th graders.

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I think the AMC8 is great, but being good at contest math doesn't equate to great. Contest math is just about memorizing problems. It doesn't involve creative thinking. You people have a limited worldview.[/quote]
Not sure what you’ve been smoking, but contest math is exactly the opposite of memorization and the problems are highly creative. There is a reason they are very difficult for not just kids but adults. Even PhDs would have a hard time figuring out some of the later AMC 10/12 or AIME problems. And that difficulty only increases exponentially at the Olympiad level. [/quote]

A proven creative like a PhD having a hard time figuring it out suggests that it's not creative, but it depends on memorized tactics.

Doing the exact same test as everyone else, solving a known solved problem, is not really creative.

If the problem has to be solved in 1-5 minutes, it's not very creative problem solving, it's prepared study.

We need hundreds of students in a school to be all expert at the same narrow set of puzzles. The world, even the STEM world, is a whole lot better. [/quote]
Have you ever actually solved or even looked at some contest problems? Your take is highly ignorant. Most kids or adults without experience in problem solving have no chance on some of the harder problems, or even some of the easier ones..  they could spend a day trying to crack them with a calculator and it would not help. What you are calling ‘memorized tactics’ are deep mathematical insights that can only be learned via practicing problem solving. This is similar to solving problem sets in college. [/quote]

You are arguing against your own point.

And yes, [b]I've been the honor rolls myself many years ago, and coached children to learn these tactics. [/b][/quote]

Different poster. Just the way you are using "tactics" suggest that you have absolutely no clue to what is involved in these competitions.

You would be laughed out if you say this to anyone in the math community.

You are not learning "tricks" and "tactics" for these competitions. Anyone who is dependent on learning "tricks" and "tactics" would not progress much further.
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DP.  You're both wrong.  There definitely are tricks and tactics that are important for lower level competitions.  AMC 8 is pretty basic, has stringent time constraints, and is multiple choice.  Introducing a kid to common ways to approach various problem types, some fast computational tricks, and some of the areas that aren't commonly covered in school math classes will help kids tremendously with tests like the AMC 8.  A kid doesn't need to be a math genius to make the AMC 8 Honor roll.  The kid just needs to be bright in math with some good coaching in problem solving.  That doesn't quite hold true when you reach AMC 10/12, AIME, and higher.  Many kids seem to plateau.

All of that being said, a kid who does make AMC 8 Honor roll is not a kid who simply knows some math parlor tricks.  The kid is legitimately good at math.  The side effect of training for math competitions and learning all of the "tricks" and "tactics" is that the kid ends up being really good at math.[/quote]

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